Author Topic: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible  (Read 23548 times)

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Offline brendan

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2005, 03:59:01 AM »
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actually he had 8 children...


feodor was retarded, vasili died young and dmitri was the result of the seventh marriage which was not considered by the church (the orthodox church only allows three marriages).... and the tsar apparently caused ivan's death (the only one left who could qualify as an heir) when he kicked him with an iron (ivan jumped in the defence of his wife who was pregnant but was not wearing according clothes - or so the tsar thought)....

basically after he died there were two boys left: feodor and dmitri... feodor was tsar for 15 years but he was basically no good because he was retarded. dmitri died in 1591 (official version was that he had epilepsy, but there were many rumours of murder and even more rumours of him not being dead - there were three false dmitris and two of them actually ruled russia... now dmitri is a saint...)...

feodor only had a daughter, that led to a succesion crisis, civil war and there came the romanovs :)...

does anyone get the feeling ivan the terrible sounds a lot like henry viii? just like him, he was obsessed with the succession, had many wives, fights with the church and in the end all that for nothing... there was still no proper heir...  :-/


Ilyala,

No offense, but you really ought to do a little more reasearch before you go stating information usually only found in a junior high school textbook account of Russian history.  Everything youve written about this so far is not only disrespectful to those your writting about, but it also helps to keep these horribly inaccurate and just plain "retarded" versions of history around even longer.
Just as an example, in your last paragraph alone there isnt one single thing there that can be considered fact, let alone actually backed with solid evidence.  Not only was Feodor NOT retarded, he was also responsible for a period of prosperity and growth in Russia that lasted until shortly after his death (directly into whats known as  the "time of troubles"). He as WELL as his father Ivan, were also listed as saints in the Orthodox church  until the revolution. There's also no account in Rusian I've  come across that has said a word about Ivan being either obsessed with having an heir OR having any problem with the church.  In fact he built a quite a number of church's during his reign, and consulted  clergy members concerning just about everything.
And if he did actually have more than one wife, it was probably because people kept poisoning them to death.

Offline ilyala

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2005, 04:35:16 AM »
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Ilyala,

No offense, but you really ought to do a little more reasearch before you go stating information usually only found in a junior high school textbook account of Russian history.  Everything youve written about this so far is not only disrespectful to those your writting about, but it also helps to keep these horribly inaccurate and just plain "retarded" versions of history around even longer.
Just as an example, in your last paragraph alone there isnt one single thing there that can be considered fact, let alone actually backed with solid evidence.  Not only was Feodor NOT retarded, he was also responsible for a period of prosperity and growth in Russia that lasted until shortly after his death (directly into whats known as  the "time of troubles"). He as WELL as his father Ivan, were also listed as saints in the Orthodox church  until the revolution.


1. i don't claim to be more than an amateur historian, i never did and never willl.. i doubt anyone will take my words for granted... but if you want back-up, most of my info on ivan the terrible comes from a book called the russian tzars chronicle, written by david warnes. if the guy is wrong so am i and i apologize for believing what was written in the book. i read there that feodor was retarded, and nowhere else... so if he wasn't, sorry. but the growth that happened while he reigned may or may not have been because of him... if he had a capable set of regents (and here's where boris godunov comes in...) things could have worked out anyway.

2. being listed a saint does not mean ivan's personality was anything close to saintly. just think that gd serge is being considered as a saint and you'll get my point.

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There's also no account in Rusian I've  come across that has said a word about Ivan being either obsessed with having an heir OR having any problem with the church.  In fact he built a quite a number of church's during his reign, and consulted  clergy members concerning just about everything.


3. the number of churches he built says (again) nothing about the person he was.

4. what other reason to change wives like he did....?

and as for the next paragraph:

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And if he did actually have more than one wife, it was probably because people kept poisoning them to death.


5. he was of course forced to send two of his wives to the nunnery. let's say that vasilisa was unfaithful (that was the apparent reason fpr her to be exiled)... but what about anna koltovskaia? why get rid of her? is it a coincidence that that happened after three years of childless marriage? or maybe he just got sick of her...  :-/
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Offline RomanovFan

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2005, 06:42:37 PM »
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But why did Anastasia died at a very early age? It was also said that after she died, Ivan became even more ruthless.


No one knows for sure what Anastasia died of. Some say she was poisoned and that her death was a murder...but nothing's certain on that issue. Ivan was mentally unstable because when the Tsar before him died, the boyars of Russia fought for the throne, murdering each other and things like that, all of which Ivan witnessed at a very young age. At 13, when Ivan didn't get his way, he sent his dogs out after the guy and watched him be ripped apart by the animals....I think Ivan had a sick love for crulety, which was caused by his witnessing the killings for the throne. When he married Anastasia Romanov, things did calm down. Ivan stopped murdering his people for no reason, he became a better ruler. After she died, he became infuriated, I think because he never knew why she died and he loved her very much.
Ivan went crazy after her death, tortured his prisoners and had a group of men wearing black and riding horses (I dont' remember what they were called) go out and search for people who were "disobeying the Tsar". If caught, people were tortured to death by hot iron or chains...something along those lines. I think this was called "The time of troubles"...I could have the wrong ruler...lol...anyway... Ivan became so angry at his son Ivan Ivanovich one day..I think it had something to do with him not liking Ivan's choice for a wife, and hit up on the head waith his staff. Ivan Ivanovich died because of that.
When he became elderly, Ivan called on a fortune teller of some kind to tell him when he would die. The fortune teller perdicted that he would die in March of 1584. Ivan died on the exact day the fortune teller had perdicted, while playing a chess game in the palace.
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2005, 07:28:48 AM »
the fight between ivan and his son happened because ivan ivanovich's wife was pregnant and was wearing clothes that ivan thought were unfitting. ivan started hitting the woman and ivan ivanovich jumped into her defense. ivan hit him and...

...taken from the same book btw, in case anyone wants to contest the information :)
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Offline umigon

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2005, 07:51:35 AM »


I have also learnt that, and even Ivan's daughter-in-law miscarried as a consequence of Ivan's mistreatment to her...


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David_Pritchard

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2005, 03:52:25 PM »
Regarding the issue of the sainthood of Ivan IV in the Russian Orthodox Church, it should be remembered that Ivan IV was a theologian of sorts who wrote quite extensively in the defence of Orthodoxy. This of course is another similarity that Ivan IV shares with England's Henry VIII who because of his many written defences of the Roman Catholic Church against Lutheranism, was granted the title Defensor Fides by the Pope.

Ivan IV and his father Vasily III also secured the borders of Muscovite Russia from invasions of the Roman Catholic Lithuanians, the Lutheran Swedes and the Moslem Tatars thereby protecting Orthodoxy from destruction or subjugation.

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Offline RomanovFan

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2005, 04:41:19 PM »
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the fight between ivan and his son happened because ivan ivanovich's wife was pregnant and was wearing clothes that ivan thought were unfitting. ivan started hitting the woman and ivan ivanovich jumped into her defense. ivan hit him and...

...taken from the same book btw, in case anyone wants to contest the information :)


That's all the fight was about?! I thought it was because Ivan didn't like her? oy, talk about being on bad terms with in-laws! Eeek! :o
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David_Pritchard

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2005, 05:57:08 PM »
I think this entire discussion is getting off track, life in the Moscow Kremlin at the time of Ivan IV was not like life in the Court of the King of Poland. Remember that at this time Asiatic Russia was in full operation and Russian Court life was closer to that of the Ottomans or Persians rather than the Poles or Swedes.

The royal women who lived in the Moscow Kremlin were not free to come and go, they were cloistered like a nun (or a Turkish harem girl). The Russian Court had extremly ridgid guidlines for behaviour and decorum especially so for the royal women. A princess who stepped over these boundries would be viewed as willful and troublesome. While the argument between Ivan IV and his son strikes us as minor, it probably was a serious matter in its own time and context.

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2005, 09:24:07 PM »
Thanks all who posted there is a lot of interesting stuff here. ilyala, I apprecaite yor posts and the way you backed up your information when you were attacked. You handled that well.
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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2005, 09:57:11 PM »
Its quite a pleasure to discuss the Rurikid dynasty, they did after all rule in Russia for over 700 hundred years. It is rather tiresome to read about Nicholas, Alexandra & immediate family ad infinitum when there are/were so many other Romanovs and another dynasty to study and debate.

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Offline ilyala

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2005, 12:02:33 PM »
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Thanks all who posted there is a lot of interesting stuff here. ilyala, I apprecaite yor posts and the way you backed up your information when you were attacked. You handled that well.



thank you, lexi :). i don't mind being in a contradictory debate, i actually enjoy it (it forces me to look for more info and that's an interesting search ;))...

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Its quite a pleasure to discuss the Rurikid dynasty, they did after all rule in Russia for over 700 hundred years. It is rather tiresome to read about Nicholas, Alexandra & immediate family ad infinitum when there are/were so many other Romanovs and another dynasty to study and debate.


i know what you mean... i for one would like to know more about ivan iii and the conflict between elena stepanovna (his daughter in law) and his second wife sofia... :)...  only found limited info on that...
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Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2010, 03:25:39 PM »
Another portrait of Ivan the terrible, now  showing his treasure to an ambassor of Elizabeth I

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 11:08:00 AM »
We have received the following request from a genuine source for information about Ivan IV's "magic" scepter made from a "unicorn horn" or narwhal tusk. Can any of you amazing people help out??

As I'm sure you know, Ivan IV's "magical" scepter was said to have been constructed from a narwhal tooth and encrusted with precious stones. These materials had healing properties, and cured severe illnesses.
I read an account of a visiting French soldier who stated the first False Dmitri showed him the regalia in the Kremlin Armory in 1605, and I have a book that claims Tsar Alexei Mikahyilovich purchased Ivan's scepter for ten thousand roubles in 1655.
After that, it seems to have fallen off the pages of history. Might you know of anyone who might be able to help me with the history around Ivan's scepter, and ideas as to where it might be?  This is proving to be quite a difficult search, so any information is greatly appreciated.


THANKS!

FA

Offline Selencia

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2012, 10:41:42 PM »
Just wanting to kick start a new discussion on Ivan IV. History has painted him as Ivan The Terrible and truly the man was a hardcore dictator to the "nth" degree and quite cruel. But despite his cruelty is it safe to say that Ivan was an effective ruler of Russia? Does Russia view him differently than the population outside Russia, in a similar fashion to Vlad Tepes?

Offline agordon2000

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Re: Tzar Ivan IV the Terrible
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 07:50:51 PM »
Feodor was retarded and Boris Godunov ruled for him. Poland said that his father could not rule but they would welcome Feodor in which infuriated his father who had got rid of the Oprichini to make himself look more appealing to the Polish who elected their king. It is unclear if the first wife of Ivan the Terrible was poisoned with mercury on purpose or she died of the medicines they gave her which had mercury.
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