Author Topic: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants  (Read 244683 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MarquisAnthony

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 156
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2004, 02:45:47 PM »
I think that Waldemar was the first carrier of his generation. Although I may have read somewhere that Mossy and Fischy had a haemophiliac among their children. I will investigate.
Marquis Anthony Green

New York City

Offline jehan

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2004, 10:02:27 PM »
Quote
I think that Waldemar was the first carrier of his generation. Although I may have read somewhere that Mossy and Fischy had a haemophiliac among their children. I will investigate.


I don't think any of Margaret's boys were haemophiliacs.  Vicky was not a carrier.  The disease among Henry's boys was inherited through their mother- the Hesse line.  I think Margaret lost a couple of sons in the war though?
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

Offline bookworm857158367

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 262
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2004, 07:21:54 AM »
Now I'm really curious to see a picture of Barbara as an adult. Did she look like Anastasia later as well? I guess that solves the "mystery" of who Anastasia took after. She had the looks of her mother's family.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13040
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2004, 09:15:32 AM »
Quote

I don't think any of Margaret's boys were haemophiliacs.  Vicky was not a carrier.  The disease among Henry's boys was inherited through their mother- the Hesse line.  I think Margaret lost a couple of sons in the war though?


I think she lost 2 sons in WW1 (Friedrich Wilhelm in Romania and Maximilian in France ) and 1 in WW2 (Christopher--married to Prince Philip's sister Sophie). She also lost her daughter-in-law Mafalda (daughter of the King of Italy) in Buchenwald and daughter-in-law Marie Alexandra of Baden in an air raid on Frankfurt during WW2.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchessella »
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2004, 12:10:04 PM »
In Richard Hough's book about Louis and Victoria, he suggests that Irene felt the loss of Alix more deeply than Victoria Battenberg.  He states that Irene and Alix, being the two younger sisters, had always been close and that the haemophilia of their sons created a common bond between the two sisters.
After WW1 , Victoria was able once more to visit her sister at Hemmelmark.  Apparently she commented that although it was lovely to see Irene again, things would never be the same - war and tragedy having changed their lives inexorably.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13040
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2004, 12:30:54 PM »
I couldn't find any additional photos of Barbara. Perhaps Art has some? She was married to Christian Ludwig of Mecklenberg-Schwerin (grandson of the infamous GDss Anastasia Mikhailaiovna). He became heir after his brother had a morganatic marriage but as they had no sons the male line of M-S died out.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Eurohistory

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1917
    • View Profile
    • Eurohistory.com
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2004, 07:28:39 AM »
Landgravine Margaret of Hesse-Kassel did lose two sons during World War I and then a third son was killed in the Second World War.  In addition, two of her three daughters-in-law (Marie Alexandra of Baden and Mafalda of Savoy) were also killed during the war, one in an air raid, the other one as a consequence of injuries suffered during an air raid at the concentration camp where the Nazis had sent her.

War and the Hesse did not mix well...

Arturo Beeche
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Eurohistory »
--
Arturo Beéche, Publisher
http://erhj.blogspot.com
European Royal History Journal
Kensington House Books
6300 Kensington Ave.
East Richmond Heights, CA 94805 USA
510/236-1730
books@eurohistory.com
http://www.eurohistory.com

Offline Eurohistory

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1917
    • View Profile
    • Eurohistory.com
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2004, 07:31:12 AM »
Quote
I couldn't find any additional photos of Barbara. Perhaps Art has some? She was married to Christian Ludwig of Mecklenberg-Schwerin (grandson of the infamous GDss Anastasia Mikhailaiovna). He became heir after his brother had a morganatic marriage but as they had no sons the male line of M-S died out.


Yes I do have photos of Barbara, but I am in Europe until the first week of October and cannot scan here.  I met Princess Barbara several times.  She always seemed terribly aloof, distant and not as nice as her brother Alfred...then again that is my opinion, but a close relation called her "terribly strong tempered," once.

Arturo Beeche
--
Arturo Beéche, Publisher
http://erhj.blogspot.com
European Royal History Journal
Kensington House Books
6300 Kensington Ave.
East Richmond Heights, CA 94805 USA
510/236-1730
books@eurohistory.com
http://www.eurohistory.com

Offline Ilana

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • I love any info on VMH
    • View Profile
    • Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2004, 06:18:50 PM »
Also, it is not certain that Vicky wasn't a carrier.
So long and thanks for all the fish

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13040
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2004, 08:01:43 PM »
Quote
Also, it is not certain that Vicky wasn't a carrier.


I thought it was certain--at least as far as it could be since none of her sons had the disease. I guess it could be lurking around (I'm no medical expert) and just never manifested itself, but 0/4 sons seems good odds. Also, it never manifested itself in any of her 4 daughters' children.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline bookworm857158367

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 262
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2004, 09:36:03 PM »
I suppose Vicky could have been a carrier with the phenomenally good luck not to have the disease manifest itself in her offspring. Her mother had three older sons -- Albert, Alfred and Arthur -- who were not hemophiliacs. Then WHAM! comes Leopold, the eighth child. Say Vicky was a carrier and none of the four boys was a hemophiliac. Her eldest daughter had only a daughter, who had no children herself. Charlotte and Feodora might have been carriers without anyone knowing it. Moretta had no children either that survived. She might have been a carrier as well. It's an interesting thought. If Henry had been a hemophiliac and he and Irene had a daughter, they might have had a rare case of a girl with hemophilia.

Offline Glücklicheres_Anonymes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Ich bleibe lieber anonym  :)
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2004, 07:00:08 PM »
> Grand Duchess Ella wrote:
>
> I don't know how Irene & Henry handled it--I've just  seen veiled references to it at all.

From what I understand, Irene and Alix became closer after the birth of Alexei, sharing the commonality of fragile, often desperately-ill sons.  There is also the implication that Irene was not as bossy/demanding/lecturing/"governessy" as Alix may have come to feel that Victoria (MH) and Ella were.

Of course, Irene's sons weren't as "important" as Alix's Alexei, and pressure was therefore greater on Alix, who also had a greater and more demanding role than as a wife of the younger brother of the Kaiser.

As sympathetic as Irene was, though, I think she shared the family unease with Alix's increasingly frantic searches for miracle cures from outré sources, culminating with the dénouement of distaste and distrust of Rasputin.  (For that, I don't think Irene was as mystically-inclined as her sisters Ella and Alix, though all the Hessians seem to have been sincerely religious, a legacy, no doubt, of Grand Duchess Alice's earnest religious quests.)

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13040
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2004, 10:55:39 PM »
Yes I would think it was definitely a bond. I always got the impression (through what little info is out there) that Irene was pretty calm about it though undoubtably upset. Though her sons weren't 'important' as you say (since they had 6 healthy male cousins ahead of them) I think it's interesting that Waldemar actually survived until 1945 and if not for the Soviet invasion of Germany probably would've lived longer. Maybe the lack of pressure helped Irene to maintain a calmer environment. I think she was a good Lutheran and it's a much more straightforward religion than Catholicism (my religion) or Orthodoxy in terms of mysticism and the frou-frou aspects (for want of a better word!). I don't think she was of religiously inquiring mind. Sad that she'd suffer the loss of a son to hemophilia--I wonder at Alix's reaction to that? It would've come before Alexei's birth--I wonder how much that weighed on her and if her reaction would've been different if she'd already had a hemophilac son? I don't imagine for an instant she wasn't sympathetic but that it would've had an entirely different frame of reference after Alexei.  
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Glücklicheres_Anonymes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Ich bleibe lieber anonym  :)
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2004, 08:52:10 PM »
Arrgh.  I didn't realize there were space constraints and so wrote a long reply to Grand Duchess Ella, only to lose the entire thing when I hit the wrong button!  :'(

So... ici j'essaye encore...

Grand Duchess Ella wrote:

Yes I would think it was definitely a bond. I always got the impression (through what little info is out there) that Irene was pretty calm about it though undoubtedly upset.


I think Iréne had a personality more similar to Victoria Milford Haven's than that of Alix (could be wrong, of course.)  It appears, through mentions of her in letters and diaries, that she just kind of calmly went her own way in many respects.

Fairly or unfairly, Alix has the reputation of having been more of a "challenge" all her life - that she faced every new event "horns in" (as the Germans say.)  For example, as much as she loved her brother and home, it couldn't have been a surprise that Ernie would marry, and, inevitably, his wife would be the new "First Lady," the new "Landesmutter" - a function Alix had filled in the absence of Alice and after Ernie's ascension to reigning Grand Duke.

While it is true that it was also not a surprise that Alix and Ducky were not simpatico, it's also true that many felt that Alix did not take the marriage of her brother and her displacement as the preeminent woman in his life and in Hesse with particularly good grace.  (Of course, plenty of letters exist that say otherwise, that Alix was very gracious and tactful, but then royal correspondence is often as full of diplomatic dodges as the letters of other people; witness how many letters of the Crown Princess of Prussia went on and on to her mother Queen Victoria about how wonderful her mother-in-law was to her, even while admitting - and tacitly illuminating - how Auguste was enormously demanding and difficult.)

It just seems to me that change was always difficult for Alix, and she resisted it all her life.  It could well be that this was reflexive, unconscious.  I do not meant that she consciously set out to be contrary.

Though her sons weren't 'important' as you say (since they had 6 healthy male cousins ahead of them) I think it's interesting that Waldemar actually survived until 1945 and if not for the Soviet invasion of Germany probably would've lived longer. Maybe the lack of pressure helped Irene to maintain a calmer environment.

I agree - the environments of Iréne and Alix in their marital lives were completely different.  While the Prussian Court was hidebound and very traditional (especially since Willy gloried in such things and wanted every bit of etiquette observed to the letter, if not always the spirit, of the "law") all eyes were on Alix in the Russian Court.  It must be said that Alix had precious little period of transition, and was almost "set up" to fail in many respects.

Alix made the dizzying transformation from a rather insignificant (but well-connected ;) ) princess from a petty German principality to Russian Orthodox convert, bride, wife, reigning Empress Consort and, theoretically, "Matushka" in a matter of weeks.  And that's just a recitation of facts and doesn't allow for the emotionalism of leaving home and all she knew for a new life in all respects - home, husband, religion, language, customs, social life, demands, pressures, usw.  This wild change will also fraught with even more emotionalism as it came while her future father-in-law (who, with his wife, had opposed her candidacy as bride for their son and heir) was dying.  I think the fact of Alexander III being fatally ill would have made such a transition difficult under the best of circumstances, that there was all that "history" (to include Nicholas II's not being well-prepared for the Throne) had to just heighten an already overloaded situation.  

(Et maintenant à la Partie Deux  ;))

 

Offline Glücklicheres_Anonymes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Ich bleibe lieber anonym  :)
    • View Profile
Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2004, 10:32:34 PM »
Êtes-vous encore avec moi ? Et maintenant à la partie deux...  ;)

In contrast, Iréne's experience was much calmer and happier.  Though I believe Henry and Iréne largely came to their "agreement" on their own, years before, when both were children, a match had been discussed between their mothers.  Oddly enough, the impetus was because Vicky and Alice (each who bemoaned her own looks and declared her sister much prettier) considered Henry and Iréne to be "ugly."  (Queen Victoria and her family were rather harsh in their judgement of the looks of themselves and their nearest-and-dearest.  ;) )  Vicky was also especially keen to secure Ella, who was attracting attention for her beauty and kind nature even as a young girl, for Willy (who was just as keen.)  Not surprisingly, neither Ella nor her mother was enthusiastic about Willy as a spouse for Ella, though both were at pains to offend neither Willy nor Aunt Vicky.

But Vicky was delighted with the idea of Iréne as a daughter-in-law.  She always took in interest in her late sister's children, and Vicky had also been often deliberately hurt by Willy and Dona, Ditta and Bernard, all of whom she had helped in their matrimonial "causes."  As has been discussed here, Vicky had great hopes that Iréne and marriage would be a "calming influence" on Henry.

BTW, I did, of course, mean that Iréne's sons were not as "important" as Alexei in the manner that Alexei was the sole son of the sovereign, while Iréne's sons were junior in precedence to his father (Henry) and the six healthy sons of the Kaiser, not meaning in any way that they were less loved by their parents!  

I think she was a good Lutheran and it's a much more straightforward religion than Catholicism (my religion) or Orthodoxy in terms of mysticism and the frou-frou aspects (for want of a better word!).

Agreed.  I believe that Iréne, alone amongst the Hessian princesses of her immediate family, retained the Lutheran - Evangelische - religion of her childhood.  I believe that Victoria Milford Haven became, for all intents and purposes, an Anglican by her later years, and Ella and Alix, of course, converted to Russian Orthodoxy.  Naturally, Ernie remained Evangelisch.

Luther's approach can basically be summed up with the motto (much beloved of Lutherans) of "Sola Fide! Sola Gratia! Sola Scriptura!"  (The other two "solas" coined by Luther as  "die Schlagwörter von die Reformation” are "Solus Christus!" and "Soli Deo Gloria!")

As part of the process of preparation for Confirmation, Iréne would have been obliged to memorize and understand Luther's Catechism, which places much emphasis on "Denn haus Gnade seid ihr selig geworden durch Glauben, und idas nicht aus euch: Gottes Gabe ist es, nicht aus Werken, damit sich nicht jemand rühme."  (Der Brief Des Paulus An Die Epheser, 2:8-9.)  This fundamental “Lehre der Rechtfertigung” is a cornerstone of the Lutheran (Evangelischer) faith and one of the contrasts which differentiates them from Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

As is well-known, Alix agonized over changing her faith.  The language of conversion could not have helped, as it demands the convert renounce his or her former beliefs in extremely strong language that, while religiously understandable, would still sound (and feel) harsh.  It appears that all the Hessian princesses took the faith of their childhood very seriously, and did not view Confirmation as perhaps other princesses of their time might have, which was more of a pro forma rite de passage marking their “coming out” and eligibility to be considered for marriage.  (Some royal parents left their marriageable daughters unconfirmed that there might be fewer religious issues in regards to future marriages.  This did not so much apply to Catholics, who were always expected to marry other Catholics, or the Orthodox, but to Protestants, who could marry other Protestants or Orthodox.)

Once Alix converted, she embraced Orthodoxy with every ounce of her fervent nature, and it can be argued that Orthodoxy, with its devotion to saints, the Theodokos, belief in intercession and good works (all similar, but not exact, to Roman Catholicism, which has its own history of bitter diversion as that which separates the Catholics and the Protestants) was a better “fit” for Alix’s mystical nature than the more staid Lutheranism of her youth.  

If you can believe it, there's still more...  et maintenant à la partie trois...  ;)