Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants

[TampaBay]

It seems to me that Russia needed a Tsaria in the mold of Dagmar.  Russia needed a female figure to dwell on could be seen as helping the masses and at the same time leading society and the court.

The most qualified for this would have to be Marie of Edinburgh.  Her tenure as Queen of Romania demonstrates her abilty as a consort/monarch/poltical helpmate.

TampaBay

[Eric_Lowe]

Sadly she was too closely related to be considered by the Russian Church. Baby Bee (Missy's sister) was barred from marrying the charming Misha. It would have saved the weak Misha from an unfortunate marriage. It was up to Ducky & Kyrill to defy both Tsar & Church to get married...

[HerrKaiser]

It seems to me that Russia needed a Tsaria in the mold of Dagmar.  Russia needed a female figure to dwell on could be seen as helping the masses and at the same time leading society and the court.

The most qualified for this would have to be Marie of Edinburgh.  Her tenure as Queen of Romania demonstrates her abilty as a consort/monarch/poltical helpmate.

TampaBay

thanks TampaBay! I agree a "more qualified" wife for NII could have been Marie or someone like Minnie, but are you also saying a more qualified choice could have/would have averted the 1918 disaster? thanks!

[TampaBay]

I do not think WWI could have been averted but I believe if Nicholas had a consort more in tune with constitutional monarchy than autocracy then the communists revolution could have been avoided by appointing the appropriate capable ministers, ruling in a constitutional/parlimentary manner and winning the confidence of the population at large. 

The system had to change an NII lacked the ability to be the progenitor this change on his own.

TampaBay

[Eric_Lowe]

Hmmmm...Had Misha married Baby Bee. I think she would have persuaded him to hold the fort rather than abdicate. Just a thought ! 

[TampaBay]

Hmmmm...Had Misha married Baby Bee. I think she would have persuaded him to hold the fort rather than abdicate. Just a thought ! 

Quite True!  Grand Duchess Marie of Russia, Edingburgh & Saxe Coburg-Gotha would also have made an excellent Tsaria or Empress in her own right.

TampaBay

[Eric_Lowe]

Ah the mother-in-law...True she does have the heart of a Tsar ( certainly the back bone). 

[Tdora1]

I agree with Helen completely; well put. And after years of in-fighting, what in the end destroyed the Romanovs and the nation was the war. whoever the czar's wife would have been would not have diverted this mistake, in fact, Alexandra should have been, as a German, able to help forge a friendship with Germany but she couldn't even keep on good terms with her cousin Willy..and expect her to influence an entire nation? Was never in the cards. Nor could it have been for anyone else, really. thanks!

         There was no 'Germany' then. There was Prussia - whose expansionist policies culminated in the 1866 war where those Principalities, Duchys etc who backed the losing side were made to suffer punitive and costly measures. Most notably the Grand Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt. Alix, unsurprisingly - disliked anything Prussian and her attitudes towards Willie were not soley personal.

[Tdora1]

And I'm quite sure that the splendour and grand lavishments, pageantry and whatnot of the Tsarist court would have been of no interest whatsoever to a Marie of Edinburgh Tsaritsa. Absolutely she would have been far too busy tackling social issues and urging and supporting her husband towards democracy and a Duma, all backed up by well-chosen, trustworthy advisors and courtiers whose interests too were solely altrusistic and humanitarian. What a perfect place that would have been for someone just like her to put all of those lifelong and fervently held interests and priorities to work tirelessly to reform a system whose manifold problems were just waiting for someone with her education, outlook and passions. Not. 

[Tdora1]

Anyway, back to Irene. I'd be interested to see if Ilana's work throws any more light on Irene's health as a child. I understand she was perceived as a bit fragile, though there were some conflicts over the issue of her being over-protected (QV as usual having a decisive input here...) - all in light of her subsequently to be found to be carrying hemophilia. Also because, following Rohl et al's wonderful work on British and Prussian and other related royals and the inherited illness of porphyria (see also The Madness of King George - the 'madness' here being the metabolic illness of porphyria which, casuing as it did severe physical and mental/emotional symptoms, was then a complete puzzle to contemporary medicine). Ever since reading this it made me wonder about Alix's persistent ill-health and the possibility that she may have inherited not just 1 but 2 faulty gene!  So: any information on the health of the Hesse-Darmstadt girls is of great interest to me. The Rohl book btw is called Purple Secret and I cannot recommend it too highly to anyone who has not read it.

[HerrKaiser]

I agree with Helen completely; well put. And after years of in-fighting, what in the end destroyed the Romanovs and the nation was the war. whoever the czar's wife would have been would not have diverted this mistake, in fact, Alexandra should have been, as a German, able to help forge a friendship with Germany but she couldn't even keep on good terms with her cousin Willy..and expect her to influence an entire nation? Was never in the cards. Nor could it have been for anyone else, really. thanks!

         There was no 'Germany' then. There was Prussia - whose expansionist policies culminated in the 1866 war where those Principalities, Duchys etc who backed the losing side were made to suffer punitive and costly measures. Most notably the Grand Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt. Alix, unsurprisingly - disliked anything Prussian and her attitudes towards Willie were not soley personal.

Tdora, thanks for your insights, but you missed the point of discussion. No one was speaking about pre 1866; we were discussing Alexandra as wife of NII when he was czar and what or who could have improved or avoided the 1918 disasters.

[Eric_Lowe]

I think most agree that Irene would have been a more reasonable person than Alexandra. 

[Tdora1]

I would have thought Alix's attitudes towards Prussia would have been of considerable importance, especially given the dreadful press she had during the war questioning her loyalties - a not-so-subtle suggestion of possible treasonous attitudes...? When Nicholas went to Mogilev to oversee the war effort, Alix was defacto in charge of ensuring Tsarist policy and communication of wishes back in Petrograd - which played a considerable role in the eventual downfall both because of her influence in appointments and policy and because the Tsar himself could not be in 2 equally important places at once. I wanted to point out that her dislike of Prussia was not based simply upon personal relations or subjective feelings but that there was a sound reason for a Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt to have a negative view of Prussia and to perceive them having an expansionist aggressive agenda. It could be argued that despite such historical foundation, Alix was constitutionally incapable of adopting and maintaining a balanced perspective on anything, no matter where her loyalities and/or opinions may have had basis. Her character was just not suited to the requirements and pressures of the role of Tsarina - which is why we are speculating whether her sister (even given the same problems she would have brought such as hemophilia) would have the personal capacity to make a crucial difference to the outcome.

[Eric_Lowe]

Well...Irene had a different temperment than Alicky. The fact that she had 2 sons with Haemophelia made the comparison easier than with VMH or Ella...

[Olishka~ Pincess]

We are not sure if Ella had hemophilia or not? I realy don't think so but she had no children so we don't know. Victoria defantly did not have it. Irene would be more of a person to trust than Alexandra. Many think Alix  was born in Germany, could not get herself together and the fact that she was friends with Rasputin she could'nt be trusted as much as Irene would be. If Irene was tsarina so much trouble would have been avioded like the 1918 murder of the Imperial Family. Nicholas II's problem was he was not autocratic enough. He was spoiled with everything all his life and yet he did not even know how to control or handle it. Rasputing have a total impact on the family. Therefore Alix dominated him, even in letters she gave him advice from Rasputin and Nicholas II followed it. I think Alexandra was listening to the wrong voice she should have advoided him. Because of that problems happened complaints from pesants blaming Alexandra for all of the trouble and the Russian government was bad and it was falling down. Thus, Irene I don't think she would have trust Rasputin.