Author Topic: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants  (Read 250907 times)

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Offline Tdora1

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #420 on: November 16, 2007, 08:07:54 AM »
We are not sure if Ella had hemophilia or not? I realy don't think so
                                                                                                  Elizabeth - I think I understand what you are trying to explain generally in your recent posts but quote is just one example of your assertions that  makes it difficult to know how to discuss the points you raise. So, here: "I realy don't think so.." - upon what do you base this opinion, for example? I'm sorry if you think you are being bashed about and I'm sorry that you are not feeling yourself but it is usually better not to try to have discussions when they seem to make you even more exhausted. That way, we have a better opportunity of understanding your thoughts and opinions rather than your temporary emotions. For my part, I am having increasing difficulty with your use of English vocabulary because I'm unclear as to whether you mean the precise definitions of certain adjectives (for example) because your grammar structure doesn't seem to support that level of vocabulary. What is your first language btw? Please please don't take this as a criticism, either personally or in any other way. I'm trying to offer some constructive help as I'm interested in what you are trying to say. So, I suggest that you delay writing until you are feel up to the task, and also try to simplify your terms while, at the same time, try also to avoid being so 'definite'-sounding. This should help avoid misunderstandings. Wishing you well....
Acts of injustice done
Between the setting and the rising sun
In history lie like bones, each one.

W.H. Auden The Ascent of F6

Olishka~ Pincess

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #421 on: November 16, 2007, 02:56:23 PM »
We are not sure if Ella had hemophilia or not? I realy don't think so
                                                                                                  Elizabeth - I think I understand what you are trying to explain generally in your recent posts but quote is just one example of your assertions that  makes it difficult to know how to discuss the points you raise. So, here: "I realy don't think so.." - upon what do you base this opinion, for example? I'm sorry if you think you are being bashed about and I'm sorry that you are not feeling yourself but it is usually better not to try to have discussions when they seem to make you even more exhausted. That way, we have a better opportunity of understanding your thoughts and opinions rather than your temporary emotions. For my part, I am having increasing difficulty with your use of English vocabulary because I'm unclear as to whether you mean the precise definitions of certain adjectives (for example) because your grammar structure doesn't seem to support that level of vocabulary. What is your first language btw? Please please don't take this as a criticism, either personally or in any other way. I'm trying to offer some constructive help as I'm interested in what you are trying to say. So, I suggest that you delay writing until you are feel up to the task, and also try to simplify your terms while, at the same time, try also to avoid being so 'definite'-sounding. This should help avoid misunderstandings. Wishing you well....
Yes. I `know so many people told me I` am not good with my English. In fact many on this forum had told me that. I am sick of it realy annoying. I don't know how to explain things in english it just would not make sense. I can't take it I am sick of people bothering and annoying me. I worn them before on this forum that my English is bad, they keep on saying that and I think they want to harass me. English is not a easy langauge to learn it took me many years to understand. Thanks for letting me know I do find it as help though but.  You can help me if you want Tdora if you can try to explain it better as to what I mean. Thanks...

From.
Valerie
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 03:25:43 PM by Elizabeth~Princess »

Offline Bsquared

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #422 on: November 17, 2007, 04:08:35 PM »
I like aspects of all of the Hessian sisters.  However, Irene did not have to prove herself in the way Alix had to.  Irene's children were not nearly as significant dynastically, so she was able to cope with their hemophelia privately without an entire court sneering at her.  It is comparing apples and oranges, two very different situations. Irene kept a low profile at the Prussian court and thus avoided criticism. There is no proof either way that she would have made an excellent empress. 

IMHO, Minnie would have reacted to Irene as her daughter in law much in the way she did to Alix, or anyone else who married Nicky.  No one was good enough for Minnie sons, not very different from Alix of Wales...This was recognized by their mother Queen Louise of Denmark.   

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #423 on: November 19, 2007, 12:26:22 AM »
Well...Irene was known to be helpful while Alicky was patholigically shy. It was evident that even as children, the two sisters were different in sentiment.  :)

Offline lori_c

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #424 on: November 19, 2007, 02:19:56 PM »
I too like aspects of all the Hessian sisters.  Their common denominator was their desire to help others and emulating Princess Alice's own life when she came to Darmstadt.  And IMO it is not comparable to say Irene would have been better suited to be Empress much less NII wife. 

MF and AIII were vying for a dynastic marriage that never came to fruition.  Had AIII lived, perhaps together AIII and MF would have come around and not have minded letting NII marry whom he wished.  AIII agreed it seems because he knew he was dying.  But being relatively young and newly widowed, MF was still in mourning and had to give her position to whomever NII married.  Irene or not, the position of Empress was critical.  The Russian people would have judged anyone harshly, I think, because they had loved MF and were charmed by her.   The new Empress would have to fill that void left by MF.  There really is no proof either way that Irene would have done a better job. 

She was good at keeping low profile and dealt with her sons' hemophilia in her own way.  But her role, a Bsquared said, was not as dynastically important nor were that of her sons.  Keeping a low profile is not what being a Russian Empress was all about.  As AF tried to do because of her innate shyness and the results of course speak for themselves.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #425 on: November 19, 2007, 08:12:29 PM »
Not really...Alicky was shy that was true, but also that coupled with pride and mindset that she was always right. A kind of schoolmarmish type of character, which unlike the fun-loving Minnie and judged harshly. Do remember what Missy wrote in her bio. "although there is not a big gap with our ages, she made me feel that I haven't even grown up !." Alicky never leaned to listen and consider other view point but hers was the main problem... :(

Offline lori_c

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #426 on: November 20, 2007, 01:53:26 PM »
Well, AF problems are certainly discussed in her own threads.  But in consideration of Irene, I think it was relevant that the point was made that she made a point to keep a low profile in the Prussian court.  It doesn't appear she aspired to be anything more than what she was.  IMO, she did display a certain stregnth that was something all her sisters had, in accepting anything that came her way.  She performed what was expected of her as a Princess and a member of the Royal family in addition to having the burden of knowing that her sons were never far from danger or death, just as all the hemophiliac descendants of QV.  She seemed to have the no-nonsense of VMH, the strength of character of Ella with the willingness to rise above her own problemes and help other just as AF did (as all the sisters did).   Somehow she seems an amalgamation of all the traits displayed by her siblings.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #427 on: November 20, 2007, 07:43:17 PM »
Yes...I doubt Irene would push herself forward into politics as Alicky did. Had Irene had the ambition, she could be a Meichen at the Kaiser's court (certainly her sister-in-law Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen dable in politics). however Irene prefer the home and did her duty.  :)

Offline Bsquared

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #428 on: November 21, 2007, 04:50:17 AM »
A Russian Empress seemed to have be expected to do more than stay quietly at home and do some charity work.  Alix was criticized for this when she was newly Empress and starting her family. Irene was able to do this in Prussia because they were not the "top couple".

Nicky put her in charge of government when he went to the front, because he trusted no one else.  Alix's ambition politically during those last years was for her husband and her son, not herself. 

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #429 on: November 21, 2007, 08:12:53 AM »
Bsquared is corrrect. Alix had no polictical amibitiions at all; she was forced into some key roles in dire circumstances, but even then resented the tasks and avoided much other than quick knew-jerk decisions because she did not seem to want to delve into the depths of the issues.

Irene would very likely have been no more desirous or able to 'share the role' with NII. That simply was not the way an autocrat in an autocrat sysmtem operated. the Romanov household was not like the Clinton Whitehouse in that just by virtue of marriage, the leader's wife assumed substantial power. No way. While QV delagated much to her husband, that was very different in terms of real power that the monarchy had.

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Offline Tdora1

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #430 on: November 21, 2007, 11:52:19 AM »
During the Tsarevich's health crisis at the faimily's stay at the Polish hunting lodge at Spala in ?1912, Irene was one of the only guests privy to the situation. A recent biographer of AF (I read the book in the USA and I'm sorry I can't cite it cos I had to sell it to raise the fare back to Blighty though I'll try to look it up) noted how her calm and relaxed manner enabled her to effortlessly cope as the hostess with a lodge full of guests while, in the background, the Tsarina fled along corridors in desparate straits after the life of her son. Although Alix was grateful for Irene's consummate skills, it did not bring them visibly closer, so wary was Alix of having any hint of the family complaint suspected of her son.
Acts of injustice done
Between the setting and the rising sun
In history lie like bones, each one.

W.H. Auden The Ascent of F6

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #431 on: November 22, 2007, 08:38:25 PM »
Thanks ! It confirms what thought about the sisters. Irene was a calming influence while Alicky went haywire when crisis arose. She was no help to Nicholas whom needed a cool head to consider the political situation in Russia.I doubt not that Alicky was not ambitious for herself, but for her son. She became more active once she gave birth to the heir. I think if she was not so opinionated she would have seen the merit of those who tried to warn her about the situation (especially about Rasputin). Instead she drove them away.  :(

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #432 on: November 23, 2007, 03:52:13 PM »
I think no one has ever denied or disputed the claim that Irene was more in control of her emotional state of being than AF and Irene was also able to exude calm while AF probably not. This, however, does not indicate that Irene would have been personally able to avert the Romanov disaster. The downfall was far beyond the scope of any one person to affect, in fact, far beyond an entire government and international influence.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #433 on: November 23, 2007, 08:47:34 PM »
Nobody is disputing that either, the problems of the dynasty goes way beyond Nicholas & Alexandra. However Irene would not have provided the enemies of the crown with the scandals cause by her blind faith in Rasputin or his opinion on political affairs. I think however had Irene been Tsarina, the Imperial family might (speculation of course) have survived the revolution and gone into exile like Alfonso & Ena.  :(

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Prince Henry (Heinrich) of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #434 on: November 26, 2007, 02:36:40 PM »
Nobody is disputing that either, the problems of the dynasty goes way beyond Nicholas & Alexandra. However Irene would not have provided the enemies of the crown with the scandals cause by her blind faith in Rasputin or his opinion on political affairs. I think however had Irene been Tsarina, the Imperial family might (speculation of course) have survived the revolution and gone into exile like Alfonso & Ena.  :(

Eric, if "No one is disputing that..." regarding the absolute absurdity that Irene as empress would have averted the family's disaster, why then do you? You go on to say had she been empress they may have escaped! It seems you are talking in two different directions and makes your points quite confused.
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