Six Wives of Henry VIII

[PssMarieAmelie]

I have a feeling we're going to have the Catherine of Aragon vs Anne Boleyn/Mary vs Elizabeth camps established fairly shortly. There doesn't tend to be much middle ground on those...*wry smile* That's what makes this fun, though.

Regards,
Arianwen

LOL......excactly!! Where would we be without fun???

[umigon]

Hi to everyone!


Anne of Cleves became one of Mary Tudor's best friends and she even converted happily after Mary's accession!

The sack of Rome actually took place on May 6th, 1527 and onwards.


Ok! If there is going to be a contest I will be in the Catherine/Mary side against the Anne/Elizabeth side. He he he!

Regards

[Arianwen]

Hi to everyone!

Anne of Cleves became one of Mary Tudor's best friends and she even converted happily after Mary's accession!

The sack of Rome actually took place on May 6th, 1527 and onwards.

Thanks for the correction! I was doing that off the top of my head while heavily drugged for a migraine, so I'm not surprised I picked the wrong year. lol I knew it was either 1527 or 1529...

Ok! If there is going to be a contest I will be in the Catherine/Mary side against the Anne/Elizabeth side. He he he!

I don't know about a contest, so much as partisan groups, jumping up to defend their chosen mother-and-daughter pair. I, for one, would have to place myself on the Anne/Elizabeth side, but I've always had a great deal of respect and sympathy of Catherine, even if I think some of her troubles were if not of her own making, at least aggravated by her, and I've come to view Mary with a new respect as well. I also don't fall into the hero-worship category for Anne and Elizabeth. They were both flawed, yet utterly fascinating women, and really, all four women got the raw end of the deal from Henry. They were all four his victims, and it's always interesting to see how each woman dealt with her relationship with Henry and either rose above it or was ultimately felled by it. Lots of grey area for me on that one...lol

Regards,
Arianwen

Regards[/quote]

[ilyala]

i am here to throw my tantrums ...

first of all, on the anne - catherine side, i choose anne ... very intelligent, charming and everything... a bit too ambitious if you ask me but still i like her better than catherine...

but my favorite of henry's wives was catherine parr

second of all...

the whole papal separation thing was not just about henry's divorce. henry's divorce was the pretext. the english people had had quite a separatist view of the church for a while now. the kings dreaded the papal mix in their business. what really sucked was that england was away from rome and generally other countries, like spain and france, had more influence over the pope who would make his decision based not on religious opinions but on who influenced him better. a perfect example is the matter of divorce. the popes were not against divorce. margaret tudor got a divorce for less reasons than henry and the pope had no problems granting her one. the reason he didn't grant henry the divorce was because at the time the pope was captive under charles, king of spain. and henry didn't want the decision of who he was allowed to stay married to depend on whoever kept the pope captive...

the english people agreed with that. they didn't mind the religious change what they did mind was the repudiation of queen katherine and the rise of queen anne... while they agreed with anglicanism they hated anne boleyn.

at the end of his life henry considered that he was married only twice: once to jane seymour and once to catherine parr who survived him.

[umigon]

Hi!

Well, I have not heard nor read the same about people's religious feelings before Henry's divorce from Catherine. From the points of view of the authors I've read, England was mostly a Catholic country: nobility and common people were Catholics while the bourgeoisie were more inclined to Protestantism. I think a proof of this Catholic feeling is the support that Mary Tudor received when her throne was usurped by Northumberland and Suffolk in the name of the tragic Lady Jane Grey.


Didn't Henry consider he had been married to Catherine Howard? Their marriage was never disolved...

[ilyala]

she cheated on him so she wasn't considered 'fit' for a queen


as for the feelings of the people, while they were not anti-catholics, they were anti-popes. the pope was a foreign bloke mixing into english business whenever it suited him. henry didn't change much about the church except for the fact that he eliminated the pope and he made himself head of the church. that way english affairs were controlled by the english

just think that in england there were wyclef and the lollards way before henry the 8th. yes they were supressed by the kings but they had a lot of popular support.

mary was supported because:
1. she was the rightful heir
2. jane grey was viewed as a puppet for northumberland and he didn't have much of a reputation...

[umigon]

That is absolutely true, Henry remained a Catholic in all but his obedience to the Pope (well, he forgot quite often about the 10 Commandements, but still... hehe!). When Mary succeeded Edward and Jane's quick reign people were happy to return to Rome, they only were upset when Mary (with an obvious lack of political view and sense) put high taxes on them for the Pope... That was nasty!


But of course, Anglican and Catholic churchs are, however, very similar and all these changes and problems were, from my point of view, just a political issue rather than personal conviction... (in most cases, I must admit Mary was a very keen Catholic).

[ilyala]

exactly. the change was political and nothing more.

they wanted independence from the pope and they got one. but they also rejected any attempt of turning full protestants... even after the revolution (that brought the rise of the puritans and all...) the normal englishman rejected pure protestantism...

[Arianwen]

Katherine Howard--cousin of Anne Boleyn, thats all i know. Like I said, Im biased towards Anna of Cleves and Catherine of Aragon.

lol Sure, so a bit more on Kathryn...

Born around 1520, she was the daughter of Edmund Howard and Jocasta Culpepper, a first cousin of Anne Boleyn (Edmund was brother to Elizabeth Howard, Anne's mother). Orphaned at an early age, Kathryn was sent to live with her grandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, where she was exposed quite young to a corrupt household. The Duchess' maids were known for sneaking men into their chamber, and encouraging Kathryn to take lovers. She was seduced first by her music teacher, Henry Mannox, though he didn't take her virginity. When Mannox was caught and dismissed, Kathryn moved on to Francis Dereham, a bit of a pirate, and they would pretend they were married, with Francis thinking Kathryn had seriously betrothed herself to him. Once she caught the king's eye, though, placed there carefully by her ever-scheming family, Dereham was sent on his way, later to blackmail Kathryn into granting him the position of her private secretary.

Kathryn took as her lover Thomas Culpepper, her cousin, but she was encouraged and abetted by Lady Rochford, George Boleyn's widow, whose testimony had sent her husband and Anne to their deaths. Eventually, one of the former maids of the Dowager Duchess came forward with what she knew of Kathryn, and the queen's fall was swift and hard. She was beheaded on 12 February 1542, after Thomas Culpepper was beheaded and Francis Dereham was hanged, drawn, and quartered, and with her was also executed Lady Rochford, who finally got hers.

People tend to see Kathryn in the age old dichotomy: if she's not a chaste Madonna, she's a wanton, rather than a young girl married to an old man and trying to see to her own needs. I don't condone adultery, but I don't think she was quite the loose woman history seems to portray her. Fooling about with one man and sleeping with three is a fairly small track record for someone with Kathryn's reputation. Nor do I think Kathryn and Culpepper had some great tragic romance. I think the truth is simply that Kathryn was too young for her husband, didn't really think the consequences would apply to her, and seriously misjudged.

Regards,
Arianwen

[umigon]

I agree with you, she was a childish woman, but I don't think she was the sixteenth century Mesalina some want us to see in her...

But, having slept with two men (they could be more, but I doubt it, as their names would have definitely come out during the questionings and trials...) out of the marriage for a woman, and for a very young woman, in those times, was something really really shocking. If Henry had spared her life, she would have probably been locked up in some convent or prison...

[Finelly]

Henry didn't consider his marriage to Catherine Howard to be a valid one given that she had entered into a contract with someone before her marriage to the King.  This was fraudulent!

[Prince_Christopher]

Didn't Catherine Howard, right as she was about to kneel onto the chopping block, say something to the effect of "Today I die a queen, but I would rather die the wife of Culpepper!"?

Funny...Shows how insolent and immature she really was....

[Finelly]

Well, she was, what, 16 or so when she married Henry (lied about her age, I think) and a total ditz.....all she had going for her were her looks and her childish charm.

[lexi4]

i am here to throw my tantrums ...

the whole papal separation thing was not just about henry's divorce. henry's divorce was the pretext. the english people had had quite a separatist view of the church for a while now. the kings dreaded the papal mix in their business. what really sucked was that england was away from rome and generally other countries, like spain and france, had more influence over the pope who would make his decision based not on religious opinions but on who influenced him better. a perfect example is the matter of divorce. the popes were not against divorce. margaret tudor got a divorce for less reasons than henry and the pope had no problems granting her one. the reason he didn't grant henry the divorce was because at the time the pope was captive under charles, king of spain. and henry didn't want the decision of who he was allowed to stay married to depend on whoever kept the pope captive...

the english people agreed with that. they didn't mind the religious change what they did mind was the repudiation of queen katherine and the rise of queen anne... while they agreed with anglicanism they hated anne boleyn.

at the end of his life henry considered that he was married only twice: once to jane seymour and once to catherine parr who survived him.

Well stated. Agreed. This is how hundreds of years later, to the seperation of church and state in the U.S.

And I am on the Anne/Elizabeth team. I think Mary was a bore. I also really like Anne of C.

[ilyala]

i agree with this view of katherine howard. she was no virgin mary, true, but she was a victim. a victim of her uncle's ambition and of henry's lust.

however it was very stupid of her to have an affair while married to henry. didn't she know what had happened to her cousin five years earlier? anne wasn't even guilty and was killed!

so uhm either she was very in love with culpeper or a bit on the stupid side...  :-/