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Author Topic: Greys and Cliffords  (Read 9291 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Greys and Cliffords
« on: July 18, 2005, 05:34:33 PM »
Is anyone else interested in getting more info on Katherine and Mary Grey, Jane's sisters. Didn't Katherine marry Edward VI's first cousin, and their grandson married Arbella Stuart, Lord Darnley's niece.

And what about Lady Eleanor Brandon, Frances' sister. I think she married Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland, and had a daughter, Margaret, who married the Earl of Derby, a descendant of Margaret Beaufort's fourth husband. I think I'm right in saying that since, in his will, Henry VIII left the crown to his children and then to Mary's heirs, Anne Stanley, Margaret Clifford's granddaughter, was the legal heiress to the throne when Elizabeth I died (though, of course, James I was a much more practical candidate).

Thoughts anyone?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Mgmstl

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2005, 05:47:44 PM »
Quote
Is anyone else interested in getting more info on Katherine and Mary Grey, Jane's sisters. Didn't Katherine marry Edward VI's first cousin, and their grandson married Arbella Stuart, Lord Darnley's niece.

And what about Lady Eleanor Brandon, Frances' sister. I think she married Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland, and had a daughter, Margaret, who married the Earl of Derby, a descendant of Margaret Beaufort's fourth husband. I think I'm right in saying that since, in his will, Henry VIII left the crown to his children and then to Mary's heirs, Anne Stanley, Margaret Clifford's granddaughter, was the legal heiress to the throne when Elizabeth I died (though, of course, James I was a much more practical candidate).

Thoughts anyone?


I think you are right concerning the will of Henry VIII giving precedence to Mary's family as heirs versus those of his sister Margaret, but when Elizabeth lay dying, wasn't she asked if James was to be her heir, and she nodded or whipered in the affrimative?  By law it should have gone to Margaret's family, then Mary's.
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lexi4

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2005, 06:53:04 PM »
Micheal,
I think you are correct about the death bed scene. I think she squeezed a hand or something that indicated she wanted James on the throne.
However, I wonder if this really happened or whether she was lucid enough to know what they were asking. Or was just this what they did to be sure James became king?
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Arianwen

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 10:41:41 PM »
*sigh* It gets so hard to do family trees in this format...

Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset and future Duke of Suffolk through his wife, Frances Brandon, was the grandson of Thomas Grey, the YOUNGER son of Elizabeth Woodville's first marriage. Frances was the daughter of Charles Brandon, Henry VIII's best friend, and Mary Rose Tudor, Henry's sister.

Eleanor Brandon (1519-1549) - married Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland, had three children. Henry Clifford's mother was a Percy, and his grandfather was Sir John Clifford, known as 'The Butcher', responsible for the murder of Edmund of York, brother of Edward IV and Richard III. Eleanor's daughter, Margaret, did in fact marry Henry Stanley, 4th Earl of Derby. Henry Stanley was the great-great-grandson of Lord Thomas Stanley, Margaret Beaufort's husband (technically her fourth, but her first marriage was annulled by the time she was nine).

Katherine Grey (1540-1567) - married 1st Henry Herbert, Earl of Pembroke (married at the same time her sister Jane married Guildford Dudley and Katherine Dudley married Henry Hastings, Earl of Huntingdon), marriage annulled and probably not consummated; married 2nd Edward Seymour, Earl of Hertford (son of the Lord Protector, nephew of Thomas Seymour and Queen Jane Seymour), had two sons, Edward and Thomas. The records I found said that Elizabeth had the marriage annuled because it had been without her consent, but I wonder. I know Katherine died of a mixture of illness and heartbreak when separated from her husband, and it took something like thirty years for her husband to re-marry. It seems to have been a real love match.

Mary Grey (1545-1578) - married Thomas Keyes, a groom and/or porter to the queen, issue unknown.

Enjoy! ;D

Regards,
Arianwen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Arianwen »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2005, 08:11:42 AM »
Thanks for all the info guys! Arianwen, I think you're wrong in two things: Wasn't Thomas Grey Elizabeth's ELDER son by her first marriage, and Richard Grey was his younger brother. And I thought that Eleanor Brandon died in 1547? Am I right?
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2005, 08:24:44 AM »
And Mary Grey suffered with dwarfism supposedly.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2005, 09:07:59 AM »
Yeah, I also heard she was a hunchback. To the credit of Frances and Henry (who weren't very good parents, IMO) they didn't hide her away, but gave her the same education as Jane and Katherine. I think she married against Elizabeth I's will, didn't she?
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Arianwen

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2005, 09:48:46 AM »
Quote
Thanks for all the info guys! Arianwen, I think you're wrong in two things: Wasn't Thomas Grey Elizabeth's ELDER son by her first marriage, and Richard Grey was his younger brother. And I thought that Eleanor Brandon died in 1547? Am I right?


No, Thomas Grey was definitely the younger son. Dick Grey was the elder, and executed along with Anthony Woodville.

Regards,
Arianwen
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2005, 05:15:32 PM »
Quote

No, Thomas Grey was definitely the younger son. Dick Grey was the elder, and executed along with Anthony Woodville.

Regards,
Arianwen



Really? I'll trust you on this one. Quite surprising, isn't it, that it was Thomas who was made a Marquess while Richard was just a 'sir'.
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Arianwen

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2005, 05:27:44 PM »
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Really? I'll trust you on this one. Quite surprising, isn't it, that it was Thomas who was made a Marquess while Richard was just a 'sir'.


Well, THIS is annoying...I'm looking through a bunch of sources on the web, and several of them are now saying that Thomas was the elder, where I'd always read differently. I thought that Richard had inherited their father's title of Baron Ferrers, and Thomas, as Edward's favourite stepson, was made Marquess of Dorset. Now I'm just confused...primary sources, here I come.

Regards,
Arianwen
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2005, 05:49:37 PM »
You go girl! Whew . . . I'm so glad we can leave the real work to people like you and reap the benefits later! :- )
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2005, 02:13:10 AM »
I've got Thomas 1455 and Richard 1456 from one source and the same again but with dates that are very vague from another.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kimberly »
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Arianwen

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 10:00:35 AM »
Quote
I've got Thomas 1455 and Richard 1456 from one source and the same again but with dates that are very vague from another.


I found that, that Thomas was 1451 and Richard 1453, another that Thomas was 1457 and Richard 1458, etc. All of these are from web sources, though, as my Croyland Chronicle, Mancini, Vergil, and the rest of my primary sources aren't here with me. *growls at grandfathers who borrow research material and then LOSE IT!!!!!!*

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Arianwen
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 11:06:07 AM »
I'm inclined to beleive that Thomas was the elder, or surely Richard would have been given a title. Anywho, didn't Eleanor Brandon have a son, the Earl of Lincoln. He died young, I beleive, Any info on him, anyone?
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Greys and Cliffords
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 12:07:25 PM »
I thought Eleanor had 2 sons who died young, and a daughter. I know MaryTudor,Eleanor's mum, had a son called Henry,Earl of Lincoln who died in 1534 aged 18. Is that who you mean.
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