Author Topic: The Grimaldi's of Monaco  (Read 255136 times)

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trixiebelle

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The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« on: July 21, 2005, 10:19:06 AM »
Funny question, but here goes... ???

Princess Caroline of Monaco and Princess of Hanover - is one title above the other?  Would one title be superior, or more royal, than the other title?

Thanks.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 10:55:19 AM »
While Prince Rainier was alive, then Princess of Hanover was the superior title, because it is  'Her Royal Highness' whereas Princess of Monaco is 'Her Serene Highness'. But now that Caroline, as heiress presumptive, is 'Hereditary Princess of Monaco' I'm not really sure. I would still plumb for Hanover, since it is HRH instead of HSH.
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Offline TampaBay

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 11:09:31 AM »
Quote
While Prince Rainier was alive, then Princess of Hanover was the superior title, because it is  'Her Royal Highness' whereas Princess of Monaco is 'Her Serene Highness'. But now that Caroline, as heiress presumptive, is 'Hereditary Princess of Monaco' I'm not really sure. I would still plumb for Hanover, since it is HRH instead of HSH.


I disagree but could be wrong!  I would say Monaco because she is now the direct heir to the throne.  It would depend on if one considers her hubby a soverign prince sitting on a throne or jut the "head of a Royal Family".

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Offline Marlene

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2005, 01:59:17 PM »
Quote
While Prince Rainier was alive, then Princess of Hanover was the superior title, because it is  'Her Royal Highness' whereas Princess of Monaco is 'Her Serene Highness'. But now that Caroline, as heiress presumptive, is 'Hereditary Princess of Monaco' I'm not really sure. I would still plumb for Hanover, since it is HRH instead of HSH.



Actually,  Caroline is not HSH the Hereditary PRincess .. she is styled as HRH The Princess of Hannover.  
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dianoshka

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 09:06:06 PM »
Quote


Actually,  Caroline is not HSH the Hereditary PRincess .. she is styled as HRH The Princess of Hannover.  


No, HSH The Hereditary Princess of Monaco is still one of her titles. Though she is now more commonly known as HRH The Princess of Hannover, only her title as Princess of Monaco has legal standing.

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2005, 07:29:28 AM »
Quote

No, HSH The Hereditary Princess of Monaco is still one of her titles. Though she is now more commonly known as HRH The Princess of Hannover, only her title as Princess of Monaco has legal standing.



You're quite right. Although the Hanover title is HRH I would have thought that the Hereditary Princess title would take precendence, at least in Monaco, because she is now heiress to the throne.
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Offline Marlene

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2005, 09:22:31 AM »
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No, HSH The Hereditary Princess of Monaco is still one of her titles. Though she is now more commonly known as HRH The Princess of Hannover, only her title as Princess of Monaco has legal standing.



No, Caroline is NOT THE HEREDITARY PRINCESS.  Monaco's succession is based on male primogeniture.  Caroline can be supplanted by a legitimate child of Albert - and his son would be styled as Hereditary Prince.  There is nothing in the Constitution that allows for the female to have such a style.  She is an heiress presumptive at this time.  But she is not the hereditary princess.  Her brother would have to name her as such.
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Offline Marlene

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2005, 09:23:15 AM »
Quote


You're quite right. Although the Hanover title is HRH I would have thought that the Hereditary Princess title would take precendence, at least in Monaco, because she is now heiress to the throne.



She is merely heiress presumptive because she can be supplanted by a legitimate child by Albert.  
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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2005, 11:20:01 AM »
But then, didn't Greece use male progmeniture? Then why was Contantine II's sister Irene styled Crown Princess of Greece from 1964 until 65 when he had a son?
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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2005, 12:07:21 PM »
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But then, didn't Greece use male progmeniture? Then why was Contantine II's sister Irene styled Crown Princess of Greece from 1964 until 65 when he had a son?



Greece is different.   Irene was also named as the Crown Princess ... it was not automatic.    Queen Elizabeth II was not the Princess of Wales.  Spain also allows the female heir to be styled as Princess of the Asturias.  However, this does not apply in Monaco.  Caroline is the heiress presumptive --
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Offline Marlene

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2005, 12:09:03 PM »
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But then, didn't Greece use male progmeniture? Then why was Contantine II's sister Irene styled Crown Princess of Greece from 1964 until 65 when he had a son?



Constantine's first child was a daughter. Pavlos was born in 1967.  Alexia was also briefly styled as as heir t the throne.  Incidentally, the title for the heir to the throne is Diadoch, not Crown Prince although the latter has been used in the English speaking media.
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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2005, 01:54:01 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up Marlene. I had no idea that the heiress presumptive to the Spanish throne could be Princess of the Asturias? Has it ever happened before? Oooh, and another rank question if you don't mind.

Between 1947 and 1952, when Elizabeth II had married Philip but was not queen, which of her titles took precedence: Princess Elizabeth or Duchess of Edinburgh. By which one was she more commonly known?

-Thanks.
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dianoshka

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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2005, 02:05:49 PM »
Quote


No, Caroline is NOT THE HEREDITARY PRINCESS.  Monaco's succession is based on male primogeniture.  Caroline can be supplanted by a legitimate child of Albert - and his son would be styled as Hereditary Prince.  There is nothing in the Constitution that allows for the female to have such a style.  She is an heiress presumptive at this time.  But she is not the hereditary princess.  Her brother would have to name her as such.


Yes, it's true that she's an heiress presumptive, but since her father's death, and the institution of Princely Law 1.249, which states that if the Sovereign Prince assumes the throne and then dies without a legitimate direct heir, the throne would pass to his siblings and their descendants under the rule of male-preference primogeniture, she's also been granted the title of Hereditary Princess.

Heir-presumptives to the Monegasque throne are entitled the title of Hereditary Prince or Princess, thus granting Princess Caroline the title of Hereditary Princess.





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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2005, 02:54:55 PM »
Here is a better site - rather scholarly,

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/monaco.htm#change2002

a male heir, apparent or presumptive, can be a Hereditary Prince.  The succession law of 2002 did not take into account the use of Hereditary Princess for a female heir.
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Re: The Grimaldi's of Monaco
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2005, 03:02:41 PM »
Quote
Here is a better site - rather scholarly,

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/monaco.htm#change2002

a male heir, apparent or presumptive, can be a Hereditary Prince.  The succession law of 2002 did not take into account the use of Hereditary Princess for a female heir.



the exact quote  from the constitution

Article 2
La dévolution de la Couronne s'opère conformément aux dispositions de l'article 10 de la Constitution.
L'héritier du Prince régnant qui est le plus proche dans l'ordre successoral résultant desdites dispositions est Prince Héréditaire.  
The crown devolves according to the terms of article 10 of the Constitution.
The heir of the reigning Prince who is the closest in the succession order resulting from those terms is Hereditary Prince.  

Notice the framers of the constitution did not use prince or princess.  They used the term "hereditary prince."  Thus, the position of Hereditary Prince is currently vacant.   However, if Caroline renounced her rights ... Andrea would come the Hereditary Prince and would retain that title until or if Albert had a legitimate male heir.
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