Richard III and the Princes in the Tower

[Kimberly]

He is certainly my top candidate for the deed. (Don't forget Margaret Beaufort is also in the frame for it )

[FaithWhiteRose]

MARGARET BEAUFORT or BUCKINGHAM

That's my 2 cents, as I have mentioned before.

I was thinking that, and Thomas Stanley.

[FaithWhiteRose]

My two great lost causes come together on one board --- Richard III and Anna Andersen!

The discovery of the children's bodies in the Tower combined with the fact that they were never seen after 1483 seems to point the finger at Richard III. If he didn't actually have them killed, he would have had to be complicit after the fact. Does anyone think that Elizabeth of York would have forgiven Henry Tudor for murdering her brothers? And Henry himself was careful not to claim the throne on the basis of his wife's bloodline. There was precedent in England for winning the crown through combat.

There is a portrait of Richard III hanging in my living room, though. So part of me will always want to believe in his innocence!

Richard III is the most likely suspect but in this world the unlikely can astonishingly be the truth . . . I agree! But not only that, Henry Pole's(related to Margaret Pole) body might have been Richard of York's body. Because some say, Richard III's supposed son, Richard of Eastwell was his nephew---Richard, Duke of York. I can't say I believe that but no one really knew who Richard of Eastwell was . . .

[Mari]

I think of all the threads this one is so interesting and everyone did such a good job with quotes and thought provoking remarks. I found something I will try and throw a link to just to add a little. This goes into really interesting detail about the murders of the two little Princes and I hope the DNA test will be published so We can know the results of the bones found. This piece tells exactly why the Princes were found in the location they were.

www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/woodville.htm

mari   

[Kimberly]

Uh huh! Agnes Strickland (and Thomas More) as a source.
Here, this is interesting;
http://www.richardiii.net/
"Click" on "Richard III", (just under his portrait).
Then "Click" on the Controversy, and then- Richard and the Princes.

[Kimberly]

This was in one of our...ahem...tackier red tops today;
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007240084,00.html
I presume he means Richard of Eastwell.

[Mari]

Gosh, I wish I knew what  the Historian  Mr. Baldwin based this on   why in the world would he end up a Bricklayer?

[Kimberly]

http://www.r3.org/bookcase/misc/richardofeastwell.html
IF he was the Duke of York, he would want to keep his head down (so to speak).

http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/publications/2000-2009/2007/05/nparticle.2007-05-18.3734209214

[Kristina]

Today's Daily Mail covers the story as well.  David Baldwin believes that the older Prince, Edward V died in the Tower of natural causes, whilst Richard Duke of York was eventually reunited with his mother Queen Elizabeth Woodville and allowed to live with her, under supervision of trusted courtiers. He was then later moved to Lutterworth in Leicestershire and to St John's Abbey, Colchester after the Battle of Bosworth Field...

[Kimberly]

Thanks for that Kristina.  Don't know about the reunited  and living with Elizabeth Woodville bit though. I wonder of there is ANY evidence of that. I am sure that if Henry Tudor had an inkling about this he would have had the lad's head off or dispatched him in secret. 

[Kurt Steiner]

Today's Daily Mail covers the story as well.  David Baldwin believes that the older Prince, Edward V died in the Tower of natural causes, whilst Richard Duke of York was eventually reunited with his mother Queen Elizabeth Woodville and allowed to live with her, under supervision of trusted courtiers. He was then later moved to Lutterworth in Leicestershire and to St John's Abbey, Colchester after the Battle of Bosworth Field...

And what happened to Richard after Bosworth?

[bell_the_cat]

My bet is that he lived quietly in Colchester, not once contacting his mother or his sisters. He would then change his name to Baldwin, before having several children.........

[Mari]

after Bosworth for Richard of Eastwell...

Richard Plantagenet was a bricklayer or stonemason, employed by Walter's son, Sir Thomas, on the rebuilding of Eastwell Manor. Mee states: "… Sir Thomas Moyle, building his great house here, was much struck by a white-bearded man his mates called Richard. There was a mystery about him. In the rest hour, whilst the others talked and threw dice, this old man would go apart and read a book. There were very few working men who could read in 1545, and Sir Thomas on this fine morning did not rest till he had won the confidence of the man …" It is said the book Richard was reading was in Latin, which was a language reserved for the highborn. The mason told Sir Thomas he was brought up by a schoolmaster. "From time to time, a gentleman came who paid for his food and school, and asked many questions to discover if he were well cared for," wrote Mee. Richard went on to describe being taken to Bosworth Field and meeting his father for the first time. The king said: "I am your father, and if I prevail in tomorrow's battle, I will provide for you as befits your blood. But it may be that I shall be defeated, killed, and that I shall not see you again … Tell no one who you are unless I am victorious." When the battle was lost, Richard Plantagenet chose a simple trade in which to lose his identity and had thus come to work at Eastwell Manor. According to Mee: "Sir Thomas Moyle, listening to this wonderful story, determined that the last Plantagenet should not want in his old age. He had a little house built for him in the Park (which is still standing) and instructed his steward to provide for it every day."
Richard III society

according to annother source he only lived three or four years after the conversation with Sir Thomas.  If this was the acknowledged third illegitimate child of Richard III I think the other certain older Son by a mistress would have been in greater danger than this Richard of Eastwell. But I wonder if Henry VII would have bothered either of the Illicit Sons? I mean would either of them really have had access to support of any kind? 

[Mari]

O.K. scratch that apparently the oldest Son was executed by Henry VII....but I haven't been able to find out on what grounds? I mean as far removed as he would have been from the Royal Court what could he have done to faill out of favour??

[Kimberly]

I pulled this from "Plantagenet Bastards" thread;
   
Re: Plantagenet Bastard
I always thought that his death  had something to do with Perkin Warbeck and his abortive "uprising". I've had a good look round and found this from Buck;
John of Gloucester (or Pomfret) was Captain of Calais and was awarded £20 per annum rent and revenues from the Manor of Kyngstonlacy, in Dorset.
(Henry obviously felt that he had nothing to fear from an undoubted bastard of his late rival). According to Buck;"At the time of the deaths of Perkin Warbeck and the Earl of Warwick, there was a base son of Richard III made away, and secretly, having been kept long before in prison."
The reason for the execution was apparently the wish of some unspecified Irishmen to make him their ruler. John also appears to have been referred to in the Confession of Perkin Warbeck as "King Richard's bastard son then in the hands of Henry VII"