Richard III and the Princes in the Tower

[Prince_Lieven]

I find it quite hard to see Margaret Beaufort as the big bad wolf in this but her name has come up several times now. (It never occurred to me that she could be implicated before). Surely, you don't have to personally have access to the Tower to be involved in the boys murders...... just access to a wallet full of money and the names of some people who would be willing to do the deed for that money?

Yes, you're quite right Kim. It wasn't as if I was suggesting that Maggs done the deed herself - she could have just hired someone. It was such a turbulent time that it was hard to see if anyone's loyalty could be relied on.

[Arianwen]

Yes, you're quite right Kim. It wasn't as if I was suggesting that Maggs done the deed herself - she could have just hired someone. It was such a turbulent time that it was hard to see if anyone's loyalty could be relied on.

Also, while we're speculating, keep in mind that Margaret Beaufort had her line of descent from Edward III, albeit on the wrong side of the blanket. She was married to Lord Thomas Stanley, a quite powerful man, and that would have given her a fair bit of influence. She also had the faithful Sir Reginald Bray, and I believe John Morton, though it's so late as to call it early, I haven't slept, and I'm medicated. Under the circumstances, I'm allowing for error. lol

Regards,
Arianwen

[Prince_Lieven]

Also, while we're speculating, keep in mind that Margaret Beaufort had her line of descent from Edward III, albeit on the wrong side of the blanket. She was married to Lord Thomas Stanley, a quite powerful man, and that would have given her a fair bit of influence. She also had the faithful Sir Reginald Bray, and I believe John Morton, though it's so late as to call it early, I haven't slept, and I'm medicated. Under the circumstances, I'm allowing for error. lol

Regards,
Arianwen

LOL - it's nearly noon here so I'm as fresh as a daisy. Yes, that John Morton was a devious man, and firmly in Margaret's camp. Not to mention Margaret's numerous infleuntial relations - she was aunt to just about everyone, including the Duke of Buckingham (through her third marriage) and Anne Neville (who was the widow of the son of her second husband's half brother - phew!).

[Elisabeth]

I find it quite hard to see Margaret Beaufort as the big bad wolf in this but her name has come up several times now. (It never occurred to me that she could be implicated before). Surely, you don't have to personally have access to the Tower to be involved in the boys murders...... just access to a wallet full of money and the names of some people who would be willing to do the deed for that money?

Please, while it's fun to speculate, let's do so within reasonable limits. Margaret Beaufort is not a reasonable suspect. Not only the princes, but also Richard III himself and his son Edward of Middleham all stood between her own son Henry and the throne. She would have had to kill all four for such a plot to make any sense.

But even beyond that, the Constable of the Tower, Sir Robert Brackenbury, had a reputation for integrity and would not have allowed anyone access to the Tower without a royal warrant. This is one reason why all these conspiracy theories involving anyone else but Richard III fail to convince in the end.

[Kimberly]

As I said in my previous post " it never occured to me that she could be implicated before". All I have done is look at how/if this could be possible. I have always had deep suspicion about Buckingham personally. I have said before that we have NO proof about the boys (see reply no. 50,that was me) at all, so surely, all of this is speculation. Respectfully yours Kim.

[Elisabeth]

Eureka! I have the solution.

ELIZABETH OF YORK did it!

Think about it, she had the motive:

She wanted to be queen of England, either in her own right or as the wife of Henry Tudor!

MYSTERY SOLVED!

And we didn't even need Inspectors Clouseau or Frost to do it. No, this mystery was unravelled by your very own Helen Mirren impersonator, Elisabeth (hey, I'm blonde, too) (but no relation to the afore-mentioned blonde criminal!)

[P.S. Folks, please forgive me, in case it's not obvious, I'm only kidding! I just figured it was time to try a little comic relief!  ]

[Arianwen]

Eureka! I have the solution.

ELIZABETH OF YORK did it!

Think about it, she had the motive:

She wanted to be queen of England, either in her own right or as the wife of Henry Tudor!

MYSTERY SOLVED!

And we didn't even need Inspectors Clouseau or Frost to do it. No, this mystery was unravelled by your very own Helen Mirren impersonator, Elisabeth (hey, I'm blonde, too) (but no relation to the afore-mentioned blonde criminal!)

[P.S. Folks, please forgive me, in case it's not obvious, I'm only kidding! I just figured it was time to try a little comic relief!  ]

ROFLMAO Elisabeth, I hope you know I utterly adore you. *hug* lol Your sense of humour is wonderful, and the comic relief was certainly welcome.

As I know many people have limited access to primary sources, I thought you lot might enjoy this...http://www.r3.org/bookcase/index.html It's through the Richard III Society, but it has excerpts from Vergil and More, just about all of the Croyland Chronicle, contemporary ballads, etc. Enjoy!

Regards,
Arianwen

[Arianwen]

As I said in my previous post " it never occured to me that she could be implicated before". All I have done is look at how/if this could be possible. I have always had deep suspicion about Buckingham personally. I have said before that we have NO proof about the boys (see reply no. 50,that was me) at all, so surely, all of this is speculation. Respectfully yours Kim.

Honestly, I don't believe Margaret Beaufort guilty, or really a serious suspect, but other scholars have made a good case for it, and I think it's intriguing, at least. Some of the more outlandish theories are interesting to think about, even if you don't really take them seriously, and disproving them, even if just to yourself, is a fun intellectual exercise. I love reading other theories about who was behind the murders, but my opinion isn't likely to change.

Regards,
Arianwen

[Kimberly]

Hey, Elisabeth, you naughty old thing you. Helen Mirren is RENOWNED for taking her clothes off.....

[Arianwen]

Hey, Elisabeth, you naughty old thing you. Helen Mirren is RENOWNED for taking her clothes off.....

ROFLMAO She looks damned good for her age, though. Watch 'Calendar Girls', if for no other reason than it's a delightful film with some really fine acting and a wonderful script.

Marie (Geraldine James): 'The next item on the agenda is the calendar. Last year, we had views of local bridges, so this year, I thought we could go for the twelve most beautiful views of...'
Chris (Helen Mirren): (mutters)'...George Clooney.'
Marie (Geraldine James): '...the churches of Wharfedale.'
Chris (Helen Mirren): (mutters) 'Eleven fully-clothed and a little "lift the flap" for December.'

Chris (Helen Mirren): 'If more people did WI, there'd be half the need for hallucinogenic drugs.'

Celia (Celia Imrie): 'Oh, get bloody Botticelli in here!'

Husband to wife: 'You're nude in The Telegraph, dear. Can you pass the bacon?'

Ruth (Penelope Wilton): 'Right, everyone. Has everyone got a ticket?'
All: 'Yes.'
Ruth (Penelope Wilton): 'A passport?'
All: 'Yes.'
Ruth (Penelope Wilton): 'A lying snake for a husband?
(everyone looks shocked) No? Only me there, then. Let's go. Come on.'

Rod (Ciáran Hinds): 'They're not charging him.'
Annie (Julie Walters): 'Why? Is it not illegal, then?'
Rod (Ciáran Hinds): 'Well, cannabis is, but they tend not to worry too much about oregano.'
Chris (Helen Mirren): 'The only thing that'd be dangerous in is a quiche.'

Chris (Helen Mirren): 'How's Jem?'
Rod (Ciáran Hinds): 'He made a quiche on Tuesday. We've been stoned ever since.'

Chris (Helen Mirren), before the National Convention of the Women's Institute: 'I'm about to commit heresy. Look, I hate plum jam. (laughter from the convention) I only joined the WI to make my mother happy. I do, I hate plum jam. I'm crap at cakes, I can't make sponge. In fact, seeing as it's unlikely that George Clooney would actually come to Skipton to do a talk on what it was like to be in "ER", there seems very little reason for me to actually stay in the WI. Except suddenly... suddenly, I want to raise money in memory of a man I loved, and to do that I'm prepared to take me clothes off for a WI calendar, and if you can't give us ten minutes of your time, Madam Chairman, well then, frankly, guys, I'm going to do it without council approval. Because there are some things that are more important than council approval. And if it means that we get closer to killing off this shitty, cheating, sly, conniving bloody disease that cancer is, oh God, I tell you, I'd run round Skipton market naked, smeared in plum jam, wearing nothing but a knitted tea cosy on me head and singing "Jerusalem". (convention cracks up laughing)'

Also, I love what John has to say about sunflowers...

'The flowers of Yorkshire are like the women of Yorkshire. Every stage of their growth has its own beauty, but the last phase is always the most glorious. Then, very quickly, they all go to seed. (laughter from the WI ladies) Which makes it ironic my favourite flower isn't even indigenous to the British Isles, let alone Yorkshire. I don't think there's anything on this planet that more trumpets life that the sunflower. For me, that's because of the reason behind its name. Not because it looks like the sun, but because it follows the sun. During the course of the day, the head tracks the journey of the sun across the sky. A satellite dish for sunshine. Wherever light is, no matter how weak, these flowers will find it. And that's such an admirable thing. And such a lesson in life.'

So now that I've completely digressed, this post is over. lol Back to topic...

Regards,
Arianwen

[Kimberly]

  Love that film. case closed then,  

[Prince_Lieven]

Hello all! I'm back after my little break, and have a teeny request to make.

I was wondering, could someone please put forward a complete case for Buckingham having done it for me? Motvie, means, etc? I know he is a popular suspect but it's been a LONG time since I researched this, so maybe you guys could help . . ?

Thanks, love ya all!

[Prince_Lieven]

Love that film. case closed then,  

Hey, I thought a couple of old ladies baring all wouldn't be my kind of thing but Arianwen's extracts are hilarious!

[Kimberly]

Actually, I've not been completely convinced that the boys WERE murdered. Henry Tudor's reaction towards Perkin Warbeck has me wondering wether he was almost convinced that he was, in fact, Richard Duke of York. There is mention in documents that is thought to refer to the princes (or one of them) being "conveyed secretly away". Also there is the tradition in the family of Sir James Tyrell that Elizabeth Woodville, Edward and Richard lived in Gipping hall, Stowmarket, by permission "of the uncle" i.e. Richard??? Is this easily dismissed by saying its all a myth.?

[Prince_Lieven]

Actually, I've not been completely convinced that the boys WERE murdered. Henry Tudor's reaction towards Perkin Warbeck has me wondering wether he was almost convinced that he was, in fact, Richard Duke of York. There is mention in documents that is thought to refer to the princes (or one of them) being "conveyed secretly away". Also there is the tradition in the family of Sir James Tyrell that Elizabeth Woodville, Edward and Richard lived in Gipping hall, Stowmarket, by permission "of the uncle" i.e. Richard??? Is this easily dismissed by saying its all a myth.?

Interesting theory, Kim. The fact is, it is like you said before: We simply have no proof of anything. But we can always guess . . .