Author Topic: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower  (Read 85224 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Elisabeth

  • Guest
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2005, 01:29:47 PM »
Quote
Hello all! I'm back after my little break, and have a teeny request to make.

I was wondering, could someone please put forward a complete case for Buckingham having done it for me? Motvie, means, etc? I know he is a popular suspect but it's been a LONG time since I researched this, so maybe you guys could help . . ?

Thanks, love ya all!


Buckingham is indeed a popular - perhaps the most popular - suspect among Ricardians. I leave it to Arianwen to fill in the details of his motive, means and opportunity. As someone who doesn't believe Buckingham did it, however, I will make the following points (which I'm sure Arianwen will tear apart in the space of a paragraph!) in his favor:

Why would Buckingham bother killing the princes in the Tower if most of England was sincerely convinced that they were illegitimate, as Richard III had declared? If the princes were truly regarded as illegitimate, then they were not in line for the throne and thus no threat to Buckingham or any other would-be pretender.

In that case, why didn't Buckingham simply kill Richard III and his son, Edward of Middleham, who, whether or not the princes were living, still stood between him and the throne?

Moreover, how did the Duke of Buckingham gain access to the Tower, especially given Constable Robert Brackenbury’s loyalty to Richard? And if Buckingham could accomplish such a feat, why didn’t he gain access to Richard and his son and kill them instead?

And why did southern England, chiefly Edward IV’s former retainers, explode into open rebellion against Richard III in the autumn of 1483, unless they were convinced that Richard III had indeed killed the princes in the Tower?


Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2005, 02:37:43 PM »
Well, with regard to you first point, Elisabeth: was all of England convinced the Princes were illegitimate just because Richard said so? They beleived him unquestioningly?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2005, 03:18:11 PM »
Just finished a 13 hour shift at work so I will leave it to Arianwen's vast cerebral matter to argue the case. One point though, "why bother killing them if they were illegitimate"  is also a reason why Richard didn't do it. And it can be argued as a motive for HenryVII TO do it. He would have to reverse the illegitimacy "clause"for him to marry Elizabeth of York (she would be illegitimate too). This would mean that the boys were legitimate and Edward would be the true king. Am now going to soak my aching feet and have an umbrella stand size gin ;D
Member of the Richard III Society

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2005, 03:20:47 PM »
Quote
Just finished a 13 hour shift at work so I will leave it to Arianwen's vast cerebral matter to argue the case. One point though, "why bother killing them if they were illegitimate"  is also a reason why Richard didn't do it. And it can be argued as a motive for HenryVII TO do it. He would have to reverse the illegitimacy "clause"for him to marry Elizabeth of York (she would be illegitimate too). This would mean that the boys were legitimate and Edward would be the true king. Am now going to soak my aching feet and have an umbrella stand size gin ;D


Good points Kim!  :)

Enjoy the gin. <sigh> An orange juice for me, I guess . . . ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2005, 03:26:37 PM »
Go on with you..... I bet you've had a sip of giggle juice before now 8) :o :o
Member of the Richard III Society

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2005, 03:29:26 PM »
Quote
Go on with you..... I bet you've had a sip of giggle juice before now 8) :o :o


Well, perhaps just once or twice . . .  ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline stacey

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 158
  • I wanna be a princess when I grow up!!
    • View Profile
    • Knowitall
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2005, 12:19:22 AM »
Henry Tudor, Henry Tudor, Henry Tudor--I already mentioned on another thread just what I think of the "character" of Henry VII--NOT MUCH!!! As someone already mentioned, no one knows for sure WHOSE bodies were found, much less has done any decent modern research on them. Even what little we know leaves a lot IMHO up in the air--like their exact ages. The "time lines" that I have seen are extremely narrow and to me unconvincing as far as "proof" pointing to the killer. Seems to me as far as all that goes it COULD be a lot of people--including Richard III and Henry Tudor. But I'm betting on Henry. He wanted that throne so bad he could taste it, and he could be viciously ruthless--just like his son whenever a wife or friend crossed him!! And after all--yes, I know about the famous battle and all that--still, just looky who ended up with that throne--yep, our old conniving Henry!! I don't think he would have flinched at offing a couple of inconvenient kids to get the big prize, that nice glittery crown--and his victims' sister as his wife! I personally think Henry's DNA was more reptilian than mammalian. (Sorry--you guys really should NOT get me started on this subject!!!  ;D ) So--go ahead and TRY telling me why I'm wrong!  :P
Sola Nobilitas Virtus

Offline Kimberly

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2005, 12:40:23 AM »
Hi Stacey, nice to see you here, hope you enjoy yourself. I guess you don't like Henry VII much ;D ;D ;D
Member of the Richard III Society

Offline stacey

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 158
  • I wanna be a princess when I grow up!!
    • View Profile
    • Knowitall
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2005, 12:55:59 AM »
What, do I give that impression???  ;D ;D ;D LOL   I must admit I have a love/hate relationship with that whole family--I find them totally fascinating (well, Henry VII more CREEPY actually  :P ) but also absolutely maddening! But I can almost forgive them--after all, we got Elizabeth I out of that crowd and she's one of my all-time heroes!!  :-*
Sola Nobilitas Virtus

ilyala

  • Guest
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2005, 02:25:07 AM »
look, i never said killing those children was boyond henry. because it wasn't. but killing two kids in the tower was useless to him till richard was on the throne and had a big bad army. i believe that for a guy like henry, richard was the priority.

also, keep in mind that he didn't kill the earl of warwick until the perkin warbeck rebellion. i think that's a very important clue. the earl of warwick was just as much of a threat as the two children, considerring he wanted to be considered  a king through his own right and not through his wife's (he even insisted on it...). he wasn't beyond killing someone, but i don't think he did useless killing. he did it when necessary. killing the two princes before he came to the throne was a suplimentary unnecessary move. :)

Elisabeth

  • Guest
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2005, 09:05:31 AM »
Quote
also, keep in mind that he didn't kill the earl of warwick until the perkin warbeck rebellion. i think that's a very important clue. the earl of warwick was just as much of a threat as the two children, considerring he wanted to be considered  a king through his own right and not through his wife's (he even insisted on it...). he wasn't beyond killing someone, but i don't think he did useless killing. he did it when necessary.


Excellent, excellent point, Ilyala!  :) IMO Henry was very pragmatic and could foresee the bad PR consequences of doing away with an heir to the throne unless it was absolutely necessary. Probably he had learned his lesson from witnessing what happened to Richard III when the two princes in the Tower disappeared during his reign: disaffection, rebellion, war.

ilyala

  • Guest
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2005, 03:15:28 PM »
in the end i think it was richard's bad pr that led to henry's crowning. had richard not had a bad pr i think more people would have fought for him. but the way things were most people just let things happen

Offline stacey

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 158
  • I wanna be a princess when I grow up!!
    • View Profile
    • Knowitall
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2005, 11:34:00 PM »
Okay, well....I'm still trying to work on a really devastating comback, you guys... ::)
Sola Nobilitas Virtus

Imperial.Opal

  • Guest
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2005, 05:38:50 AM »
   For Australians on the Board, there is a British tv series Fact or Fiction, on thursday night, Episode 4 is on Richard 111 and the murder of the princes, it is on the ABC - 8.30 pm. Regards, Stephen  ;)

PssMarieAmelie

  • Guest
Re: Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2005, 06:05:32 PM »
Quote
  For Australians on the Board, there is a British tv series Fact or Fiction, on thursday night, Episode 4 is on Richard 111 and the murder of the princes, it is on the ABC - 8.30 pm. Regards, Stephen  ;)



Thanks for the warning--I had forgotten all about it until I read that...thanks again. :)