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Offline Annie

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Biggest questions I want answered
« on: July 23, 2005, 07:39:49 PM »
Franziska Schanskowska WAS Anna Anderson, and she was not Anastasia.

There is no longer any reasonable doubt about that. But there are still mysteries I want answered. Here they are:

1. Did Franziska willingly play along, or did she really have amnesia and not know who she was? Did she want to rid herself of her old life so badly she became someone else?

Also, if she really did believe she was Anastasia, at what point did this happen? Was it from the beginning, or did she play along so long she came to believe it in her old age because she was mentally unstable?

2. Did her supporters really believe her, or were they only hoping, or hoping for money?

3. Who coached her, taught her languages, and fed her memories? And of the memories, how many were intentionally fed, or just incidental relayed in conversation?

4. What went on between her and her siblings when they met? Surely they knew it was her, and covered for her. But did she know it was them and beg them not to expose her?

5. Who was behind the whole lawsuit thing, and why?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2005, 08:22:12 PM »
Annie: >>Franziska Schanskowska WAS Anna Anderson, and she was not Anastasia<<

For those who are not sure if Anna Anderson was FS, there are many other threads which discuss this subject.  Please, respect Annie's thread and no "red herrings" need to place here or anywhere.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Mgmstl

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2005, 08:37:24 PM »
Quote
Franziska Schanskowska WAS Anna Anderson, and she was not Anastasia.

There is no longer any reasonable doubt about that. But there are still mysteries I want answered. Here they are:

1. Did Franziska willingly play along, or did she really have amnesia and not know who she was? Did she want to rid herself of her old life so badly she became someone else?

Also, if she really did believe she was Anastasia, at what point did this happen? Was it from the beginning, or did she play along so long she came to believe it in her old age because she was mentally unstable?

2. Did her supporters really believe her, or were they only hoping, or hoping for money?

3. Who coached her, taught her languages, and fed her memories? And of the memories, how many were intentionally fed, or just incidental relayed in conversation?

4. What went on between her and her siblings when they met? Surely they knew it was her, and covered for her. But did she know it was them and beg them not to expose her?

5. Who was behind the whole lawsuit thing, and why?



I would address these points issue by issue but we have been through this entire thing before.  Were you not blaming Gleb Botkin for a great deal of the issues regarding who coached her, etc.  ?  If I am wrong then I am apologize in advance, but I seem to remember that we proved through testimony given at the trials that AA could speak & understand Russian in a manner considered to be fluent by the staff of Dalldorf Asylum.
This was LONG BEFORE she met Gleb Botkin.  If this was an intricately constructed charade as you illude to, then that theory falls apart.

Also regardless of your feelings regarding the sibling of FS the siblings actually did not recognize her as their sister officially THROUGH ANY LEGAL OR NOTARIZED source.  Meaning second hand family information cannot be used as source.  Not one of them ever officially recognized her as their sibling.  

You are also forgetting that she only met Felix in 1927 in Wasserleonburg, near Castle Seeon, when she was staying with the Duke of Leuchtenberg.  He is the ONLY SIBLING who met privately with her.  There is no recorded transcript of their conversation.   In 1938 11 years later due to the interference of the new head of the Russian Emigre Office in Berlin (who was a very close friend of Grand Duke Vladimir) the siblings were ALL FORCED to meet in Hannover, they did not meet individually or alone, they met in the police station or some civil building, in a room, with the POLICE PRESENT.
None of them recognized except Gertrude made two outbursts about her being her sister, these outbursts were looked on in amazement by the other siblings who stated in the meeting this woman was obviously NOT their sister.  No signed statement either way was ever made by the siblings.

Of course some of those involved had to be in it for money, the legendary millions supposedly left by Nicholas as dowaries for his 4 daughters.

Gleb Botkin played a large part in the later trials and investigations.  She was also bankrolled by those sympathetic to her.

Annie, I must reiterate, and I am NOT attacking you, that you ASSUME a great deal with your statements and disregard the known facts of the events about which you write.     FS may be AA to you, and that is fine, but many of us want a look at all of the evidence, in a truthful open manner, before we close the book on this long involved and tragic story.

Finelly

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2005, 08:55:20 PM »
It seems to me that while we can have threads questioning the relationship of Gertrude and FS, and comparing AA's nose to AN's nose, etc, all of which may infer that we are not certain who FS was, who AA was, and whether AN survived.....

It is ENTIRELY appropriate to devote a thread to FS being AA and addressing the questions Annie did.

Assuming, FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT ONLY, that Annie is correct, how ARE those questions answered?

I can only speculate, but here are my thoughts:

First, I have a hard time believing that AA/FS entered into a scheme to masquerade as AN.  I do not know when FS "became" AN, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere within a few years, she truly believed, on many levels, that she was.  If she had a fragile personality, it would have been a relatively simple thing for FS/AA to truly incorporate the myth within herself.  I wish there was more available about her - hospital records, etc, that we could read and analyze.

Second, I also have a hard time believing that anyone schemed with her.  People risked their reputations, their friendships, their family lives, their money because they believed in her.  There doesn't seem to be, from what I have read, any indication that people were after the alleged money.  Even if they were, surely they would have lost interest when it took so long to access the $.  Please do not hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong and there are facts out there indicating a lust for $ by others.

Third, that whole "memory feeding thing..."  I do believe that there were tons of gossip magazines available that would have given her tidbits of info.  And emigres, also, whose stories she could have heard.  I'm willing to bet that she could subtly glean info from people who knew the imperial family -- it's actually pretty easy to do, if you listen carefully and think fast.  But how did she know about Gleb's animals?  Or the soldier with the pockets?  That sort of thing?  Oh, and I read somewhere, but can't find it, that Prince Sigismund's questions were obvious and that it would have been easy for anyone to answer them....

Languages....if you are good at languages, they are pretty easy to pick up.  FS did not come from a poor peasant family, but a farming family that had access to schools.  She probably learned at least one foreign language there.  I speak 5 languages myself, and understand several more  -  it's just a knack, and honestly, if I was thrown in the middle of Romania, I could probably get by fine, or Denmark, Norway (I'm a native Swede) or Belgium.  

I cannot for the life of me understand the family issue.  It would be interesting to have actual transcripts of the conversations, rather than reports from third parties.  I'd love to know what she and Felix talked about on their first meeting.  I would love to know more about the family in general, and am hoping that Penny and Greg will uncover more info.  




Offline Annie

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2005, 09:19:09 PM »
Quote
Annie: >>Franziska Schanskowska WAS Anna Anderson, and she was not Anastasia<<

For those who are not sure if Anna Anderson was FS, there are many other threads which discuss this subject.  Please, respect Annie's thread and no "red herrings" need to place here.

AGRBear


Thank you bear ((hugs)) for all the good it did, thanks for trying. And I will respectfully stay out of your 'red herring' threads!

Michael, this thread is for those of us who do believe AA was FS and are wondering about the background WHY'S, not her identity.

Finelly

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2005, 09:22:13 PM »
/....or for those who are willing to explore the why's, even if we aren't positive about the FS being AA being not AN.......:)

Finelly

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2005, 09:23:10 PM »
So, Annie, what are your thoughts?  Any speculations?

Offline Annie

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2005, 07:12:07 AM »
Quote
So, Annie, what are your thoughts?  Any speculations?



Not really, or I wouldn't be asking others;)

But as far as GUESSES here goes:

1. Did Franziska willingly play along, or did she really have amnesia and not know who she was? Did she want to rid herself of her old life so badly she became someone else?

I think when she jumped in the canal that night in 1920, she did not want to live anymore. She killed herself off that night. She wanted nothing to do with her life, and so when she survived, she refused to admit to her identity. She did not want them to find out who she was, her past, or tell her family. Of course, amnesia, even temporary, is possible considering her mental state.

I also wonder what really happened to her baby, and how this played into her wanting to kill herself.

Also, if she really did believe she was Anastasia, at what point did this happen? Was it from the beginning, or did she play along so long she came to believe it in her old age because she was mentally unstable?

I think she did play along for years, and as she became elderly and more unstable, she honestly believed she was Anastasia. By the time she married John Manahan in 1968,  she signed a paper swearing she was Anastasia. I think she believed that.

2. Did her supporters really believe her, or were they only hoping, or hoping for money?

This I am very torn on. Could be a little of both. I know I used to believe her because I wanted to. But now that I know because of the DNA it isn't her, I look back on the pictures and wonder how I ever could have even considered it. I do think wishful thinking and love for a  mystery play into it.

3. Who coached her, taught her languages, and fed her memories? And of the memories, how many were intentionally fed, or just incidental relayed in conversation?

I'm not going to name names, but I will say I think it was more than one person. Gleb Botkin was not the first, no, who was, I don't know. This is one of the biggest mysteries of all.

On the languages: she may have had a rudementary knowledge of several languages, being in central Europe during wartime. But when Felix Y. met her in 1927, he asked her questions in English, French, German and Russian, and she only answered in German. German was the language most common to Franziska, but least common to Anastasia. The family spoke Russian, and English, and she learned French from Gilliard. and it was the official language of the court. They learned German too, but it was the least used of the languages since their German relations (Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc.) spoke and wrote to them in English.

Anna Anderson's English sounded rough and heavily accented with German and/or Polish accents until her end (I have seen videos of her talking) Anastasia's English would have been much better, and accented like a British person, since that's how Alexandra talked. The Tsar also spoke English with a British accent.

Point is, AA was mainly a German speaker and learned other languages later.


4. What went on between her and her siblings when they met? Surely they knew it was her, and covered for her. But did she know it was them and beg them not to expose her?

They recognized her on sight, then denied her. Gertrude was most insistant. But in the end they would not expose her. My theory is that she first denied knowing them, but when they pushed it, she admitted it and begged them not to expose her. No good could have come from this for any of them. There would have been expenses to pay, and legal trouble for filing a false claim. Then they'd have to drag a miserable, mentally unstable sister home kicking and screaming, hating them for blowing her story. Worst of all, they'd have had to support her financially since she was unable herself. This is more reason than any for siblings to deny her. (personal experience here) No one wants anything to do with a sibling who is trouble and is going to cost them money. So for her own good, and theirs, they, as Felix S. later said "left her to her "career" as Anastasia." As "Anastasia, she would always have supporters and be taken care of with living expenses. That's why Felix S. made the joke 'sausages long ago'- if he really believed that, he wouldn't have joked about it.  

5. Who was behind the whole lawsuit thing, and why?

I would not even begin to guess names, but I do think it was bigger than we will ever know, and well covered up. Whether or not you believe she was FS (though it's been proven she was unless you buy the mysterious identical cousin or tampering conspiracy theories) we know she wasn't Anastasia. So her claim was false.

My personal guess is that some person or more likely a group of people saw this pathetic creature calling herself Anastasia and decided to use it to their advantage. Whomever this was must have had connections, and some knowledge of the Russian Imperial court.

Mgmstl

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2005, 09:29:42 AM »
Quote

Thank you bear ((hugs)) for all the good it did, thanks for trying. And I will respectfully stay out of your 'red herring' threads!

Michael, this thread is for those of us who do believe AA was FS and are wondering about the background WHY'S, not her identity.



You do know what & where you can file that request.
After all you did to put your two cents worth in on all of the other threads, I will be right here to add mine. :),
just like you did, but of course in a polite manner.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2005, 09:59:50 AM »
Annie:  >>when Felix Y. met her in 1927, he asked her questions in English, French, German and Russian, and she only answered in German. German was the language most common to Franziska, but least common to Anastasia.<<

If she answered him in German than she understood English, French and Russian.

By the way, remember, the German AA used was "high German" not "low German" which FS's family spoke.  And, yes, there is a big difference.

I find it difficult to name anyone without proof that they helped AA with any intentions for personal gain.  

AGRBear

PS  Please,  do not think if  some of us disagree on various points that we are attacking Annie or anyone else personally.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Annie

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2005, 10:38:13 AM »
I just don't want this to be turned into yet another thread questioning her identity. In this thread, that is not a question, only how the whole story unfolded.

Finelly

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2005, 12:24:05 PM »
Hey, folks, this thread is about FS BEING AA, not questioning it.  In other words, the issues Annie wants to discuss are based on the assumption (whether you like it or not) that FS is AA.  

THis is NOT the place to debate whether FS was AA.  It is to take the assumption and go with it, for the sake of an excellent exploration and discussion.

Annie - I agree with what you said about languages.  Although I am not necessarily fluent in many languages, I can follow along with the basic conversations.  If asked questions, my tendency is to answer in English.  

Then, when I am exposed to the language more and more, I will start to answer in the language, start to participate in the language, leaving English behind more and more.

Sounds like what FS might have been doing.

Mgmstl

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2005, 01:16:07 PM »
Quote
Hey, folks, this thread is about FS BEING AA, not questioning it.  In other words, the issues Annie wants to discuss are based on the assumption (whether you like it or not) that FS is AA.  

THis is NOT the place to debate whether FS was AA.  It is to take the assumption and go with it, for the sake of an excellent exploration and discussion.

Annie - I agree with what you said about languages.  Although I am not necessarily fluent in many languages, I can follow along with the basic conversations.  If asked questions, my tendency is to answer in English.  

Then, when I am exposed to the language more and more, I will start to answer in the language, start to participate in the language, leaving English behind more and more.

Sounds like what FS might have been doing.



Annie and others did not respect our wishes on the other threads, so why should they be accorded what we were not allowed to have??   I have no intention of disrupting the flow of ideas, or the discussion (which by the way was constantly done to us),so I disagree with you Finelly,  but Finelly when she  or someone states something that isn't fact or states it is fact regarding the meetings and statements of the Shanzkowsky siblings or the language issue, I am going to be there to point it out the obvious errors.

The point remains about the siblings and the errors in her statements regarding the surviving siblings of FS.
Not one of them ever officially recognized her as their sister.  There were only TWO meetings, one with Felix in 1927, where at first he said she was his sister, than he recanted and said no she was not, and the 1938 group meeting in Hannover, which despite Gertrude's outbursts which led to nothing, and their official reaction to Gertrude's outbursts (the other siblings) is something on the level of why is she doing this, this woman is obviously not our sister.  Read the accounts in Kurth's book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Mgmstl »

Mgmstl

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2005, 01:26:45 PM »
Everyone should take a good look at her supporters, and when they joined in the crusade to have her declared Anastasia.  I think the timing is of great importance here.

Of course the goal was financial, the legend of the accounts of N & A 's daughters in the millions of rubles existing out there would have been their goal, and if AA was declared AN by the courts then she would be heiress to all of those millions.  The goal was never anything else but financial.  They formed a corporation, GRANDANOR, to handle their gains once they succeeded.

It is bizzarre but if they picked someone to be AN, then they picked a bad candidate.  Going back to the Dalldorf staff who testified that she spoke & understood Russian in a fluent type of manner then the idea of her being coached does not work, as she would have had to been taught Russian.  Gleb or the others were not in the picture at that time.   Also monarchist magazines could not have had as much detail as she would need.

So Annie who besides Gleb are your suspects???

Offline lexi4

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2005, 04:31:17 PM »
Quote
Everyone should take a good look at her supporters, and when they joined in the crusade to have her declared Anastasia.  I think the timing is of great importance here.

Of course the goal was financial, the legend of the accounts of N & A 's daughters in the millions of rubles existing out there would have been their goal, and if AA was declared AN by the courts then she would be heiress to all of those millions.  The goal was never anything else but financial.  They formed a corporation, GRANDANOR, to handle their gains once they succeeded.

It is bizzarre but if they picked someone to be AN, then they picked a bad candidate.  Going back to the Dalldorf staff who testified that she spoke & understood Russian in a fluent type of manner then the idea of her being coached does not work, as she would have had to been taught Russian.  Gleb or the others were not in the picture at that time.   Also monarchist magazines could not have had as much detail as she would need.

So Annie who besides Gleb are your suspects???


Good points. I would like to see a list of her supporters. I would be willing to put it together, if Annie agrees that is is related to this topic. If not, I am willing to put a list together on a new thread. Annie?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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