Author Topic: Biggest questions I want answered  (Read 154918 times)

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rskkiya

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2005, 11:09:04 AM »
Thanks for the update!

Ok
So if AA did actually have a child or loose it by way of miscarriage/early childhood disease/ malnutrition/abandonment - in addition to the loss of her fiance... this trauma may well explain an emotional desire to 'reinvent' herself or to 'become' a lost and mysterious princess figure.

The mind is remarkable in its ability to reinvent, create or forget anything too painful to be understood in a factual sense. While it's possible that the whole thing was a tissue of lies from start to end, I am more and more convinced that on some level AA did actually think that she was who she claimed to be.


Penny_Wilson

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2005, 11:19:31 AM »
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So if AA did actually have a child or loose it by way of miscarriage/early childhood disease/ malnutrition/abandonment - in addition to the loss of her fiance... this trauma may well explain an emotional desire to 'reinvent' herself or to 'become' a lost and mysterious princess figure.



Except -- there's absolutely no breath of evidence to suggest that FS was ever pregnant or lost a child to miscarriage.  

Rampant speculation does not help us come to any conclusions, and, to the contrary, is a terrible way of practising history.

rskkiya

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2005, 02:30:54 PM »
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Except -- there's absolutely no breath of evidence to suggest that FS was ever pregnant or lost a child to miscarriage.  

Rampant speculation does not help us come to any conclusions, and, to the contrary, is a terrible way of practising history.


I was not speculating - I was under the impression that AA was understood by her own admission to have had a child... I was also trying to update my perhaps out of date information - regarding whether any of the asylum doctors could have KNOWN that she had had a child.
   AA claimed that she had a child- but she might have been deluded/ mistaken or symply a liar...
Is questioning the evidence of this claim now "bad history"?
I did understand that -for this discussion- AA was FS.

Ohhh
this is another AA/FS issue Penny - isn't it...  :-X  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Annie

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2005, 04:28:45 PM »
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I was not speculating - I was under the impression that AA was understood by her own admission to have had a child... I was also trying to update my perhaps out of date information - regarding whether any of the asylum doctors could have KNOWN that she had had a child.
    AA claimed that she had a child- but she might have been deluded/ mistaken or symply a liar...
Is questioning the evidence of this claim now "bad history"?
I did understand that -for this discussion- AA was FS.

Ohhh
this is another AA/FS issue Penny - isn't it...  :-X  


Exactly, rskkiya!Since it was confirmed AA had a child and AA was FS, therefore FS had a child. This is NOT another was she FS thread. Here, (as in reality) she was.

Why was there no evidence of FS's child before she was AA? It's not hard to  figure it out. In those days, single motherhood or illegitimate babies were a 'scandal' or a 'disgrace' to the entire family. Naturally it was kept hush hush. This was COMMON up until the latter 20th century! If she had the baby and abandoned it, dumped it, or put it up for adoption, she would not want anyone to know, especially not her family. She also could have had a miscarriage or even abortion at 4 months along or more and it would still show as a scar on the interior of her uterus like a full term baby's umbilical cord would leave. (I know this because in her old age my grandmother was examined and told by a dr. she never met before she'd had 5 children- she had 4 babies, and lost the last one at 4 months falling down the stairs)

So there is a lot that could have happened to that baby, and she would not tell anyone, and we will never know. She likely never would have admitted to it if the asylum didn't discover it, then she had to have a cover story (about the Romanian orphanage)

Penny_Wilson

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2005, 05:28:37 PM »
Sorry, you're both speculating.  

1.We cannot possibly know how AA or FS would have acted had either of them had an illegitimate child.  Home-made anecdotes regarding our own relatives shed zero light on this situation.

2.We can be virtually certain that the woman known as AA had a child: Her cervix was examined by a doctor as part of a physical, and it was determined that she had given birth at least once -- and this was something she confirmed herself.

3.AA did not consider her child illegitimate, for she believed that she went through a ceremony of marriage with Alexander Tschaikowsky.  There is some reason to suspect that the ceremony -- as described by her -- was an ordinary mass rather than a marriage, but this is only speculation also.

4.The Romanian orphanage is not a cover story.  There is quite a bit of evidence to support AA's assertion that she gave her child up for adoption; someone did a bit of research into the matter during the trial -- I believe it was Dominique Aucleres, though I could be wrong here.

5.There is absolutely no evidence -- NO evidence AT ALL -- to suggest that FS was ever pregnant.  Her family denied it; her family saw her shortly before her disappearance, and had seen her on a fairly regular basis since she moved from Borowy Las to Berlin -- and remember that her own sister Gertrude lived with her for some of that time in Berlin.  Remember also that she was in and out of various hospitals and asylums, and under fairly regular, if not constant, doctors care.  From the time she left her parents' home to the time of her disappearance, she was never "unattended" by either family or medical personnel for more than a few weeks at a time.  All of this is easily established by the evidence accepted at the German trial.

6. However, for the sake of argument, lets give FS a mythical child:  In this case we would have to say that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that FS's hypothetical baby died in miscarriage, early childhood disease, trauma, whatever.  The only contact we can be sure she had with any man was with her fiance -- and we don't know that there was sexual contact at all.  She met him in 1915; he died in 1916 -- she is well accounted for during this time.

Sorry, but this speculation over FS's hypothetical child, and the disregarding of known facts about AA's child is certainly bad history -- you do it because it allows you to conflate the two women into one -- but the matter of the child is one piece of evidence that keeps them apart as separate individuals in my opinion.

And rsskiya -- you keep telling people how to behave around here, yet you keep loading your posts with snide comments towards those you don't like.  Just stop it.  You're not fooling anyone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »

Annie

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2005, 05:57:38 PM »
Sigh, if there's anything 'mythical' here it's that ridiculous escape story with the nonexistant Alexander Tchiakovsky, and the entire Romanian escape thing. A bloody girl 2000 miles in a horse cart, sure. Please, this is not a thread trying to prove AA's claim. It's about FS and what was behind her becoming "Anastasia"  

jeremygaleaz

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2005, 06:04:01 PM »
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So there is a lot that could have happened to that baby, and she would not tell anyone, and we will never know. She likely never would have admitted to it if the asylum didn't discover it, then she had to have a cover story (about the Romanian orphanage)


Exactly. I think it's often taken for granted here that everything about history is recorded, or even recorded correctly, and it's sitting there on a dusty shelf waiting for us to discover it. What if she lost the baby before she even realized she was pregnant? What if she was taken to a different doctor and the records were lost or never kept? There's quite a few logical possibilities here. ..
Speculation is perfectly fine in this area, because theory is all we'll most likely have in the end.  

Penny_Wilson

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2005, 06:12:33 PM »
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Exactly. I think it's often taken for granted here that everything about history is recorded, or even recorded correctly, and it's sitting there on a dusty shelf waiting for us to discover it.


Let's not generalize about a specific: In this case, all this ground has already been covered by court researchers, investigative journalists and professional historians.  Certain facts have been established, and they cannot be ignored in favor of advancing a "pet theory" -- which is often mere speculation anyway.

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What if she lost the baby before she even realized she was pregnant?


Then it's a non-issue.  She didn't know about it, and we don't know about it.  It's non-supposable.

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What if she was taken to a different doctor and the records were lost or never kept? There's quite a few logical possibilities here...


Not really, in the face of established fact.  But go ahead anyway, since this is clearly not an academic exercise.

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Speculation is perfectly fine in this area, because theory is all we'll most likely have in the end.  


Actually, it's not perfectly fine -- but you'll find that out when you come to write your article/film your documentary.

jeremygaleaz

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2005, 06:19:12 PM »
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Then it's a non-issue.  She didn't know about it, and we don't know about it.  It's non-supposable.



Actually, depending on when she lost the baby, it would still show up as a scar on the inside of the uterus. Hence, the inspiration for her wild story.  

Penny_Wilson

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2005, 06:35:22 PM »
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Actually, depending on when she lost the baby, it would still show up as a scar on the inside of the uterus. Hence, the inspiration for her wild story.  


There is no evidence that she "lost the baby."  None.  There is, however, substantial evidence that the baby was born -- albeit probably prematurely -- on a certain date in a certain place, and there are further documentary indications that the child was, indeed, placed with an orphanage according to the story.  Which isn't so "wild" after all...

Annie

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2005, 07:09:48 PM »
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There is no evidence that she "lost the baby."  None.  There is, however, substantial evidence that the baby was born -- albeit probably prematurely -- on a certain date in a certain place, and there are further documentary indications that the child was, indeed, placed with an orphanage according to the story.  Which isn't so "wild" after all...


It was not America in the 21st century. It was Germany, wartime and post wartime. Even today, people have kids and ditch them in trashcans. She might have had a miscarriage and didn't want to go to the dr. because she didn't want anyone to know. While there is no proof on paper, there is no evidence otherwise. We know AA had a child. We know FS was AA. Therefore FS had a child. It's like Star Wars, Darth Vader denies being Anakin Skywalker, yet he is still the father of Anakin Skywalker's son. Yes, Darth Vader is fiction. And so are all the stories of AA being Anastasia. And no one is more ficticious than Alexander Tchiakovsky. Talk about absolutely no proof! A dead, lost or abandoned baby is a lot easier to explain away as not having any official evidence than a grown man!

It seems the plot to deny FS had a baby is only a wild ploy by those who still cling to the preposterous, ficticious theory that she might still be Anastasia and are trying to make the two women look different to perpetuate that doubt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2005, 07:40:27 PM »
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There is no evidence that she "lost the baby."  None.  There is, however, substantial evidence that the baby was born -- albeit probably prematurely -- on a certain date in a certain place, and there are further documentary indications that the child was, indeed, placed with an orphanage according to the story.  Which isn't so "wild" after all...


Since this thread tells us that we are supose to believe AA was FS, I do believe it was AA who stated that she had a child.  But, now, some of you are suggesting  AA was lying or delusional due to her mental state because it doesn't fit into the timeline of FS who's medical records do not tell us she had a child???

Penny,  are you telling us that there are documents found in the German court records about a child being born?  This wasn't  just something she thought up when the doctors discovered she wasn't a "Miss" but a  "Mrs. Unknown".

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Penny_Wilson

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2005, 07:45:29 PM »
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While there is no proof on paper, there is no evidence otherwise....


Oh, come on !!  This is no way to approach history -- and if you don't know this, you should.

I think I'm going to put on my "professional" historian hat and have nothing else to do with this thread.  It's past belief.

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We know AA had a child. We know FS was AA. Therefore FS had a child. It's like Star Wars, Darth Vader denies being Anakin Skywalker, yet he is still the father of Anakin Skywalker's son. Yes, Darth Vader is fiction. And so are all the stories of AA being Anastasia. And no one is more ficticious than Alexander Tchiakovsky. Talk about absolutely no proof! A dead, lost or abandoned baby is a lot easier to explain away as not having any official evidence than a grown man!


Wow.  There's just nothing to be said to this.  Darth Vader?    AA being Anastasia?  Who's arguing that?

But AA was real, and Alexander Tchaikowsky was real enough.  It seems possible that he died in an Eastern European prison in the 1930s.  This is why I like research better than speculation -- you can find things out.

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It seems the plot to deny FS had a baby is only a wild ploy by those who still cling to the preposterous, ficticious theory that she might still be Anastasia and are trying to make the two women look different to perpetuate that doubt.


Bull.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »

etonexile

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2005, 07:46:59 PM »
I'd like to know more about the Miss/Mrs. issue...but as a gentleman....I must remain in the dark.... ::)


Was pony riding involved in any way...?...or is this just some nonsence of my elder sister....? ???

Penny_Wilson

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Re: Biggest questions I want answered
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2005, 07:55:53 PM »
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Penny,  are you telling us that there are documents found in the German court records about a child being born?


Yes.  She was quite adamant about the child's birth, and claimed a date in -- I think -- December 1918/January 1919 for the birth.  This is in the court records, along with her statement concerning the possible death of Alexander Tschaikowsky -- which AA claimed happened in a street-fight, but which can't be verified independently.

This date of birth, of course, places conception in the early months of 1918 -- unthinkable for people when the theory was that she was Anastasia, because that would mean one of two things:  That rape had happened in Tobolsk, on board the Rus, in the Ipatiev house, or all three; or Anastasia had had consensual sex while in captivity, presumably with a guard.  Either way, when she -- AA-as-Anastasia -- left the Ipatiev House in mid-July 1918, she was pregnant.

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This wasn't  just something she thought up when the doctors discovered she wasn't a "Miss" but a  "Mrs. Unknown".


It was never my impression that this was the case.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »