Mary Boleyn's children

[ilyala]

arianwen said, in another thread that maybe they didn't fully consummate the marriage and yet did... uhm... get intimate... i don't remember in which thread, i believe it was the arthur tudor one...

[helenazar]

I think that with Henry as with some other men, having a mistress and children by her was something they did not want to hide because it was a sign of virility.  

This is one of the main reasons why I am skeptical about Mary Boleyn's children being fathered by Henry as opposed to Will Carey. IMO, Henry would have probably not hesitated to publicize it if it were the case, especially if one of these children was a son. More so even in Henry's case because not being able to father a son was such a sore spot with him. Considering that Henry never proclaimed these children to be his (as far as we know), I tend to believe that it was because they weren't... But, as with many other historical questions, we will probably never know for sure!

[elena_maria_vidal]

arianwen said, in another thread that maybe they didn't fully consummate the marriage and yet did... uhm... get intimate... i don't remember in which thread, i believe it was the arthur tudor one...

Thanks, Ilyala. I know what you mean....I'll check out the Arthur Tudor thread.

[elena_maria_vidal]

This is one of the main reasons why I am skeptical about Mary Boleyn's children being fathered by Henry as opposed to Will Carey. IMO, Henry would have probably not hesitated to publicize it if it were the case, especially if one of these children was a son. More so even in Henry's case because not being able to father a son was such a sore spot with him. Considering that Henry never proclaimed these children to be his (as far as we know), I tend to believe that it was because they weren't... But, as with many other historical questions, we will probably never know for sure!

Well, I am totally mystified by the whole situation. It sounds like Henry either did not know for certain if they were his, or he was convinced that he was indeed not the father. And yet one the boys looked like him....I don't get it.

On the subject of bastards, Henry actually did not have as many as some other kings did. Someone, I think Bell the Cat, said that Henry really was not a womanizer. I certainly don't think he set out to be one. He kind of reminds me of American movie star Lana Turner, who had one husband after another. She said, " I dreamed of having one husband and seven children. Instead I have had seven husbands and one child." It is often sad how life unfolds....

[ilyala]

maybe they both expected too much

i think henry had ended up with a sort of contentment while being married to catherine. after anne came along though, he started wanting more and more... i'm not sure it was even about the heir, since he kept changing wives even after edward was born. he wanted the perfect woman because he was the king and he was a cranky old man and he believed he deserved one. and after anne he was probably much less willing to compromise.

[elena_maria_vidal]

maybe they both expected too much

i think henry had ended up with a sort of contentment while being married to catherine. after anne came along though, he started wanting more and more... i'm not sure it was even about the heir, since he kept changing wives even after edward was born. he wanted the perfect woman because he was the king and he was a cranky old man and he believed he deserved one. and after anne he was probably much less willing to compromise.

You have a point there, Ilyala, and this sort of thing happens all the time nowadays, everybody always thinking they will be happier with someone else, and never really finding true happiness. I completely agree that Henry had found a measure of contentment with Catherine and that of all his ladies it was with her he had true spousal love - love that is a decision, not based on feelings, although feelings play a part. With his last marriage to Katherine Parr, he ended up with the kind of wife he had in the beginning, although the Catherine he had loved in his youth was gone forever.

[ilyala]

when he died i believe that for his funeral he only allowed for jane seymour and catherine parr to be mentioned as his wives. while this might sound quite normal, considerring that they were the two wives that did not have an unnatural termination of marriage (annulment, execution), i find it quite interesting... i mean, i think that catherine parr had her own ideas but after almost getting under trial for showing protestant sympathies she simply shut her mouth. jane was also known for shutting her mouth. also they both were good step-mothers to henry's children. they were more... the typical wives... don't you think? in a way a lot like catherine of aragon herself.

[elena_maria_vidal]

That is very interesting. He respected and admired women who were good mothers, like Catherine#1, as well as being doting wives, but yet who had strong opinions as well.

[helenazar]

He respected and admired women who were good mothers, like Catherine#1, as well as being doting wives, but yet who had strong opinions as well.

I am not sure if we can even say that Henry "respected" or "admired" any women in any way... Yes, he liked the company of women, but only in how it related to himself. In many ways, Henry was a mysogenist who thought women were inferior. He did not think a woman can rule effectively, no matter who she was. Another example of this was his behavior towards his last wife Catherine Parr, who was very intelligent. He seemed to have been threatened by her intelligence, almost to be in competition with her, which almost cost her her life! As long as women did not put on "airs", Henry was fine with them (maybe this is why he "liked" his fifth wife, the flighty Catherine Howard best, at least for a while). He liked to feel superior to women at all times, and when he didn't, he was not a happy camper!  

[elena_maria_vidal]

The word I should have used was "attracted" to certain types of women, but I was trying to be nice to Henry and bring his urges to a higher level. Yes, he certainly was what we would call a "misogynist." I wonder how he got that way?

Was Katherine Howard really, truly flighty or was she just young and high-spirited? Ford Madox Ford in his book "The Fifth Queen" maintains that she was actually very learned and Henry liked conversing with her for her wit, as well as for her beauty. Ford says that while her upbringing was a bit irregular, he did not think she actually committed adultery, but signed the paper admitting to it to keep them from torturing her maids, because she was trying to get Henry to reconcile with the Pope. Sorry, I guess I am digressing again....

[ilyala]

this is the first time i ever heard a theory of katherine howard NOT commiting adultery. however, given her premarital history, i wouldn't bet on it being true... and, come on, how altruistic can you be?! to keep them from thorturing your maids you offer to be killed?! i'm sure she knew that it was coming due to her cousin's example! i'm sorry i find it very hard to believe...

[bell_the_cat]

this is the first time i ever heard a theory of katherine howard NOT commiting adultery. however, given her premarital history, i wouldn't bet on it being true... and, come on, how altruistic can you be?! to keep them from thorturing your maids you offer to be killed?! i'm sure she knew that it was coming due to her cousin's example! i'm sorry i find it very hard to believe...

Catherine never admitted to adultery as such. She admitted having had sexual relationships with Manox and Dereham before her marriage, and that she had had "secret meetings" with Culpeper during her marriage. Culpeper persisted under torture in saying that they had just been talking, but admitted that they had wanted to go further.

[helenazar]

Catherine never admitted to adultery as such. She admitted having had sexual relationships with Manox and Dereham before her marriage, and that she had had "secret meetings" with Culpeper during her marriage. Culpeper persisted under torture in saying that they had just been talking, but admitted that they had wanted to go further.

Yes, I believe that Catherine's relationship with Culpepper is still up for discussion as far as historians are concerned and it has not been proven or disproven if anything blatantly sexual actually transpired (and never will be proven or disproven).

[Prince_Lieven]

I am not sure if we can even say that Henry "respected" or "admired" any women in any way... Yes, he liked the company of women, but only in how it related to himself. In many ways, Henry was a mysogenist who thought women were inferior. He did not think a woman can rule effectively, no matter who she was.

Not that he was much different from his contemporaries in this respect.

[helenazar]

Not that he was much different from his contemporaries in this respect.

Absolutely!