Author Topic: Catherine of Aragon  (Read 71156 times)

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lexi4

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2005, 07:56:25 PM »
I agree Elisabeth. Elizabeth did seem to inherit the best of both parents.
I also agree, as others have said, that Catherine could never have agreed to divorce. For one, it wa against all of her religious beliefs.
I also think she wanted to assure her daughter the throne. I have a question that I should know the answer to, but can't recall. How long were Cathering and Arthur married?

lexi4

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2005, 11:00:08 PM »
Is this true? I don't remember this....
By 1505, when Henry was old enough to wed, Henry VII wasn't as keen on a Spanish alliance, and young Henry was forced to repudiate the betrothal. Catherine's future was uncertain for the next four years. When Henry VII died in 1509 and one of the new young king's actions was to marry Catherine. She was finally crowned Queen of England in a joint coronation ceremony with her husband Henry VIII on June 24, 1509.

The part about Henry VII now being keen on a Spanish alliance and young Henry being forced to repudiate the betrothal?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »

Offline trentk80

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2005, 07:26:57 AM »
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I have a question that I should know the answer to, but can't recall. How long were Cathering and Arthur married?


In 1501 Catherine married Arthur, Prince of Wales, and he died the following year.
Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Finelly

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2005, 08:55:42 AM »
Yep, it's true, Lexi.

lexi4

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2005, 11:23:33 AM »
So why did Henry VIII marry her later?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »

Mgmstl

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2005, 12:40:58 PM »
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So why did Henry VIII marry her later?



Actually at first Henry VII was going to marry her himself.
Ferdinand & Isabella wanted hin to marry her to Henry VIII, and withheld the unpaid portion of Katherine's dowry.  Henry finally conceeded their point, and  Henry and Katherine were formally betrothed the following year, by a dispensation from Rome.

Also Henry VII was getting older, his health was precarious to say they least, and the ONLY male in the family to succeed him would be Henry, so for the sake of the dynasty IMO, this had to be done.  Henry VII was also trying marriage offers to other Europeans princesses; Juana widow of Philip of Castile, Archduchess Margaret of Austria widow of Don Juan, but it all came to naught.

RomanovFan

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2005, 03:25:35 PM »
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What a great idea for a thread! Isn't it interesting that most people seem to forget that Catherine was actually married to Henry for over 20 years - more than 5 times longer than any other wife?



I think she was. Since she and Henry were married fairly young. Catherine married his brother Aurthur in 1501, but he died in 1502 so she was married off to his brother, Henry that year, I think. Then they became King and Queen of England in 1509, and then Catherine had Mary I in 1516.

Offline trentk80

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2005, 08:18:20 PM »
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Catherine married his brother Aurthur in 1501, but he died in 1502 so she was married off to his brother, Henry that year, I think.


When Arthur died King Henry VII was interested in keeping Catherine's dowry, so 14 months after her husband's death, she was betrothed to the future Henry VIII, who was too young to marry at the time.

By 1505, when Henry was old enough to wed, Henry VII wasn't as keen on a Spanish alliance, and young Henry was forced to repudiate the betrothal. Catherine's future was uncertain for the next four years. When Henry VII died, the new young king married Catherine. The marriage took place in the Church of the palace Friary at Greenwich on June 11th 1509. The marriage was a quiet affair since the King was still in mourning for his father. On June 24th 1509 she was crowned Queen of England in a joint coronation ceremony with her husband Henry VIII.



Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Silja

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2005, 11:49:46 AM »
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Nevertheless, IMO both Henry and Catherine used religion to suit their own purposes.

they adapted their religion to suit their own interests, which seem to have been primarily dynastic.


  


Without doubt Henry always used religion to suit his own interests. As to Katherine, she, too, seems to have done it to some extent, as in those days most people would indeed not bother, or were simply not able, to reflect critically on their own views.
However, I don't think that Katherine's interest was primarily, but only secondary, dynastic. Usually the two things would indeed coincide . . . If the pope had however declared the marriage void (which would have been very likely had he not been held captive by Charles V), I'm sure she would  have submitted to the decision even if it would have meant her degradation and even though she could easily have realized that a decision in favour of Henry on the pope's part would have resulted from the latter's desire to win the former's political favour and not from any theological conviction. Katherine, IMO, firmly believed in the pope's authority as God's representative.

Elisabeth

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2005, 12:52:16 PM »
Really, do you think so? You make a strong argument but my own opinion is that Catherine would have rejected any pope who told her that her marriage with Henry was  illegitimate. I think she was an incredibly strong woman, who in the end would not have been intimidated by any patriarchal authority, be it Henry or Charles V or even the pope. IMO Catherine felt to her very bones, first and foremost, that she was a Spanish princess, the daughter of Isabella, always and forever superior to the upstart Tudors, and England be d**ned. But that is just my personal reading of her character, and I could very well be wrong. These sixteenth-century personages are 500 years away from us, so very, very distant in time: how can we ever hope to plumb their motives, ultimately?

Silja

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2005, 01:49:08 PM »
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Really, do you think so? You make a strong argument but my own opinion is that Catherine would have rejected any pope who told her that her marriage with Henry was  illegitimate. I think she was an incredibly strong woman, who in the end would not have been intimidated by any patriarchal authority, be it Henry or Charles V or even the pope.



No, I think she would definitely have submitted. Katherine was definitely strong and stubborn but for her the traditional patriarchal authorities remained sacred. Such as her husband's will which for her ruled surpreme except in cases of clashes with her conscience (that is, faith). Hence the advice to Mary to obey her father in all things.

If the pope's authority had not been so very important to her, she wouldn't  so desperately have pressed for his speedy decision. She needn't have minded if it would ultimately have been irrelevant to her anyway. By the way, she also for a very long time believed Henry would submit to the pope's decision . . .  

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 But that is just my personal reading of her character, and I could very well be wrong. These sixteenth-century personages are 500 years away from us, so very, very distant in time: how can we ever hope to plumb their motives, ultimately?


True. We can never truly know as we don't have clear evidence. We will naturally never know how Katherine would really have reacted if the pope had granted the nullity suit  ;D. But from my reading of her character and consideration of the existing evidence I come to the above-mentioned conclusions.


Arianwen

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2005, 09:40:05 PM »
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No, I think she would definitely have submitted. Katherine was definitely strong and stubborn but for her the traditional patriarchal authorities remained sacred. Such as her husband's will which for her ruled surpreme except in cases of clashes with her conscience (that is, faith). Hence the advice to Mary to obey her father in all things.

If the pope's authority had not been so very important to her, she wouldn't  so desperately have pressed for his speedy decision. She needn't have minded if it would ultimately have been irrelevant to her anyway. By the way, she also for a very long time believed Henry would submit to the pope's decision . . .


I think you're exactly right. Papal infallibility wasn't doctrine yet, but universally accepted as part of the Catholic faith. If Clement delivered a verdict that the marriage was invalid, I think it would have broken Catherine utterly, but she'd have accepted it. Mary, on the other hand, would have been the one to keep fighting, in my mind.

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True. We can never truly know as we don't have clear evidence. We will naturally never know how Katherine would really have reacted if the pope had granted the nullity suit  ;D. But from my reading of her character and consideration of the existing evidence I come to the above-mentioned conclusions.


I agree completely. We can't know for sure, but the picture of her I've pieced together from research is of a woman whose faith was everything to her, the Catholic faith, which means obeying the Pope before any other earthly authority. If Clement had ruled against her, I think she might have taken the veil out of sheer heartbreak and desperation, if she didn't actually die of grief.

Regards,
Arianwen

bluetoria

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2005, 06:02:45 AM »
The saddest part of the whole sage is, imo, that Catherine actually genuinely loved Henry. Not only was she protecting her daughter, and adhering to her faith, but even on a basic human level, how could be expected to just say, "Yes, these years we've been married mean nothing." ?
I greatly pity her.

ilyala

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2005, 06:10:14 AM »
i pity her too but she was fighting a losing battle for nothing. so stubborn and wasted all her efforts even when all was lost...

umigon

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Re: Catherine of Aragon
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2005, 07:25:50 AM »
I don't think everythiong was lost. She saved her honour and that of her daughter's. She thought that a Spanish infanta with Ferdinand and Isabella's blood  could not give in to a King from a new Royal House and a woman who belonged to the English nobility just in her mother's side!


If she had given in, she would have probably locked up in a convent... and maybe the same for Mary...