Anna of Cleves

[PssMarieAmelie]

Since other threads have been devoted to Anne Boleyn, Catherine of Aragon etc.etc. I am going to start one about my FAVOURITE wife of Henry VIII, Anna of Cleves.

But I have a question---

Do you think Anna of Cleves ended up the most well-off of Henry's wives??


PS. I am home from school today--I have the flu.

[Finelly]

Oh, absolutely.  For one thing, she survived.  For another, she ended up being the wealthiest of the wives, which was often useful if one was alive.

She was absolutely beloved by the people, by her stepchildren, and many of the court.  She did what she wanted, when she wanted, enjoyed herself to the fullest, and lived a long and happy life.

Can't do better than that if you are a Tudor woman!!!!

[Tsarfan]

Anna is my favorite wife, too.

Henry was not a hard man to keep in reign when he was in the throes of lust or things were going well.  But he was notoriously difficult to handle outside of those conditions.  Only two wives -- Anna and Catherine Parr -- had any success there.

Parr often found herself on shaky ground, particularly when her strong intellect inevitably broke to the surface, but she survived largely because Henry became so dependent on her in his failing years . . . and in part because Henry died before Catherine took one dare too many.

Anna, though, had the hardest task of all.  Her introduction to Henry was a crushing disappointment to him, she was on foreign soil with no real political power supporting her from the continent, Henry's antipathy caused any English support for her to become risky, she had none of the skills of courtly recreation so valued at the time, and her initial command of English was iffy.

Yet she emerged a canny strategist of stout heart and kind disposition.  Either devoid of ego or smart enough to suppress it, she made no demands for deference based on position that could not be sustained by affection.  She eventually succeeded not only with the court and the country, but with Henry himself, who truly came to see in her a friend.

It would have been a significant accomplishment for anyone.  For a wife Henry VIII was looking to set aside, it was an amazing accomplishment.

I, for one, think Anna to be one of the most underestimated women in history.

[Prince_Christopher]

Anne of Cleves is my favorite wife of Henry VIII.

I think that soon after her arrival in England, with her introduction to Henry, she realized very quickly that she was in a deadly game.  She didn't speak English at first, but saw that she must learn it quickly and did.

She also did not want to return to Cleves to be shunned as a spinster or divorced woman, under the total control of her brother.

She was shrewd and calculating, having by necessity to stay one step ahead of Henry.  She was quick-witted and she played the "beloved sister" role brilliantly.

She did end up well-respected by the court, her stepchildren, and even Henry, who eventually discussed politics with her.

She became wealthy, having her own estates, managed to keep her head, lived longer than Henry or any of the wives, and basically got to enjoy life somewhat.

So, yes, I think she ended up better off than, probably, anyone associated with Henry.

[Elisabeth]

I don't mean to call into question Anna of Cleves' intelligence, which I agree was above average, or her skills at negotiation and manipulation, which again, I agree were above average - but I think her fate might have been rather different if she had not been of royal blood, and furthermore, of foreign blood and Protestant. Catherine of Aragon, too, would have fared much better than she did if she had only agreed to divorce Henry. There was a degree of respect, even awe, accorded to royal blood in the sixteenth century, which we simply don't see in cases like that of Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, both commoners by birth. Even Henry VIII would have hesitated to execute a German Lutheran princess, no matter what her supposed "crimes."

[elfwine]

    I do think that she was the luckiest and the most 'liberated' of his wives...
   After agreeing to an annullment, she was able to live peacefully as an independant woman in charge of a number of estates, able to do more or less what she pleased with her time! Her 'dinner parties' were considered the very best - good cooks- and in an era when unmarried women were considered non-entities socially she did very well for herself.

She became very fond of Mary and was a very sincere and happy catholic convert.

[KentKim]

She grew to enjoy English ale and gambling; she spent large sums on gowns; she visited with the king's children and occasionally the king himself.  She was heard to remark that she was more attractive than Katharine Parr, to whom the king's attention turned in 1543.  In fact, upon Catherine Howard's execution in 1542, rumors circulated that perhaps the king would take back his former bride.  The French ambassador was suitably impressed with Anne's handling of a delicate situation, observing that 'all her affairs could never make her utter a word by which one might suppose that she was discontented.'

[Tsarfan]

I think her fate might have been rather different if she had not been of royal blood, and furthermore, of foreign blood and Protestant.  There was a degree of respect, even awe, accorded to royal blood in the sixteenth century.

I agree with the proposition, generally.  However, there is a long history of queens who, even while remaining queens, became extremely marginalized both socially and politically when their husbands' attentions turned elsewhere.

Certainly Henry would not have dared to put Anna in physical jeopardy.  But he could have treated her much more harshly fiscally and have banned her from court or contact with his family.  Look at the penury in which Catherine of Aragon was kept for years by both Henry VII and her own father before her marriage to Henry VIII -- and she was the scion of one the most powerful royal houses of the age.

I think the treatment of Anna by Henry, his family, court society, and the English populace indicated a huge amount of respect she won by her own character and not just the advantage of birth.

[Prince_Christopher]

I doubt that she would have lost her head, but she could have ended up like Catherine of Aragon, had she not agreed to a divorce.

[Tsarfan]

I'm not sure Anne had any legal right to refuse an annulment.  As final arbiter of matters both spiritual and temporal after the break with Rome, could Henry not simply have had the marriage declared void?  Cromwell could certainly have provided some convoluted legal or diplomatic pretext if needed.  And Anne was so naive about the physical act of consummation, Henry might even have been able to pin the blame on her without her understanding how to challenge it.

Anne certainly eased Henry's task by acquiescing in the inevitable, but Henry could probably have secured her cooperation with a financial settlement and then ignored her existence.  Instead, he often invited her to court, allowed her to form relationships with his children, and first tolerated and then welcomed her involvement in political affairs.

Henry was not a considerate man to those he no longer needed or did not like.  As he no longer needed Anne after the settlement, he must have liked her quite a bit.  She travelled a very long road very quickly, moving Henry from open hostility to the "Flanders mare" to singular signs of respect six months later.

She secured some estates by agreeing to the annulment.  She secured a permanent role in English society by other means.

[Kimberly]

I quite admire this queen too, but I do wonder wether there was a bit of  jealousy when she saw henry marry a very young girl followed by  Kate Parr, who she considered as not as attractive as herself. Just a thought.

[Kimberly]

I also agree with Tsarfan on her point.

[Prince_Lieven]

I did admire her a lot until I heard that she was apalled that Henry had married Catherine Parr. She said she was 'much prettier' than Catherine. This struck me a little b!tchy.

[Tsarfan]

Well, word got around that Henry had called her a "Flanders mare", so her feelings had probably been rendered a bit raw.

Since Henry had set looks as a key criterion in his choice of wife, she had every right to opine on how she measured up against that standard compared to Parr.

In fact, even allowing for some embellishment by Holbein, she doesn't appear in her portrait to have been bad looking.  I have always felt that Henry's lack of attraction to Anne had more to do with his particular tastes in certain features than with Anne's looks as most would perceive her.

First, Holbein knew that his painting would eventually be compared to the original, so I doubt he would have dared taking too much liberty.  Also, others who saw her felt she was a suitable match for a king known to put a lot of stake in looks.  Finally, while most commentators from the time reported Henry's views of Anne's looks, I am aware of no general echoing of his sentiment.

[Finelly]

I'm betting it wasn't so much looks that was Henry's problem, but her style and language.

Anne came from a tiny country, without access to a great education and the languages necessary to read, discuss and appreciate great literature and music.  She spoke only a tiny bit of English when she met her future husband.  Her clothing style was at odds with the French-inspired wardrobes of English women.  She did not know how to dance.

In contrast, Henry was a widely-read man who spoke several languages, including the ancients.  He adored music and composed some of his own songs.  He wrote and read poetry.  He loved to dance and entertain.  He was intrigued by quick-witted women and men.  He loved good fashion.  He was also incredibly impatient.

By the time Henry was married to Catherine Howard, Anne had learned to dance (even danced with the Queen), learned English, become more literate, and discovered high fashion (one of England's best dressed women!).  It's too bad he couldn't wait.......