Author Topic: The Character of Henry VIII  (Read 28522 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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The Character of Henry VIII
« on: July 29, 2005, 09:27:13 PM »
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Tsarfan, I think Henry VIII's character deserves a thread of its own, and I would be more than happy to contribute if you started one!


Okay . . . let's have at the old boy!

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2005, 09:53:45 AM »
Horrible, cruel, meglomaniac, inferiority complex . . . where do I start? Perhaps someone more experienced should take the floor before I embarrass myself with my own bias . . .
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2005, 10:54:23 PM »
Pretty good start, Prince.  The question is how Henry became those things -- innate traits or the result of a progressive unhinging of his emotional equilibrium?

To me there seem to be two distinct stages to Henry's life -- the period up through the first 15 or so years of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon and then the rest of his life.

I believe there were two fundamental tenets in Henry's belief system and that he was ultimately cursed by the collision of those two tenets.  The first was Catholicism.  He truly believed in the dogma and ritual of the Church, being immensely proud of being granted the title of Defender of the Faith and taking the attendant duties seriously.

And he truly believed that England would descend back into dynastic civil war if he left her without an undisputed heir.  To him, this meant a male born of an incontestable marriage.

We often forget how long Henry's relationship with Aragon was successful.  He had known her for years while he was waiting to ascend the throne, and he surprised his court by the speed with which he chose to marry her upon his father's death, after years of Henry VII's shabby treatment had almost destroyed both her and Spain's expectation that the marriage would ever occur.  During most of the years of their marriage, Henry treated Catherine with more respect than many queens then or since were accorded, including relying on her as a trusted counsellor and turning the reins of government over to her during foreign campaigns.

My guess is that, had the marriage produced a healthy male heir, Henry VIII would be far less the iconic figure he is today.  But the marriage did not produce the desired heir, and that changed everything -- for Henry and for English history.

I think the need to escape the marriage to Aragon triggered a cascade of events that destroyed Henry's emotional equilibrium.  He was forced to jettison a faith publicly that I think he nevertheless privately carried to his deathbed.  This step began a process that had no easy stopping point, in part because any movement against the Church on the king's part imparted a surge of energy to the widespread anti-papism of the English population and the somewhat less widespread but nevertheless potent Reformation sympathies.

Henry's personality had traits that tended to run to extremes and, in a sense, I think he tried to exorcise his inner horror at the actions he was taking against the Church by becoming progressively more open to advice that ever more extreme measures were needed.

Many people find that, once they break a taboo the first time, all restraint collapses.  And I think Henry's reign after the Great Matter is a playing out on a national stage of just that phenomenon.  He had truly cared about Aragon for many years.  But once he had been forced to employ psychologically brutal methods in setting aside a queen of high royal birth (grander, in fact, than his own), no subsequent setting aside of a queen would loom as large, even by more brutal means.

Once he had committed the horror of challenging the authority of a pope, he became obsessed with making sure no one would commit the same horror against him . . . hence the Oath of Loyalty and the Thomas More affair.

And, having destroyed the authority in his realm of the Catholic Church, how could that Church hold a significant portion of the realm's property?  Hence the seizures of 1536-40.

I think Henry was an intelligent yet boorish man of massive energy and appetites who went through a catalytic psychological event that converted those appetites into monstrosities.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2005, 05:38:41 AM »
Wow! Are you a physchologist or something? That was great!

You're absolutely right in that people often forget just how long Henry actually was married to Catherine of Aragon . . .

And yet, despite all his bad points (which far outweighed the good ones IMO) he was capable of kindness. I have always thought that Mary was his favourite child. Even though Edward was the boy, he was unlike Henry in temprament, and Henry was only concerned with keeping him alive. Elizabeth, though Henry was proud of her intelligence, would always remind him of Anne Boleyn. It was Mary, his first born, who was his favourite, I tink, especially during the later years of his reign, in spite of all he had done to her and her mother. The memory of her birth harked back to happier times - a beautiful wife by hi side, the chance of more children etc.
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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2005, 06:11:31 AM »
I agree with Prince Lieven, Tsarfan, you have given us a marvelous analysis of Henry VIII's complex personality. I only wonder if you are leaving out one very important trait of Henry's, which I believe was both innate and excessive, and that was his ambition.

In his youth Henry gloried in his title of "Defender of the Faith," took enormous pride in his physical beauty and accomplishments, and strived to emulate the deeds of his Plantagenet ancestors and reconquer France. Meanwhile he left much of the actual running of the government to Cardinal Wolsey. But the divorce from Catherine of Aragon changed all that. It forced Henry to take a much more active role in affairs of state. In the end, he became Supreme Head of the Church of England, not merely a temporal ruler but a spiritual one as well.

So in addition to the reasons you have enumerated, don't you think it was also Henry's newly awakened lust for power that drove him to commit such extreme acts of cruelty as the executions of Thomas More and Anne Boleyn, among so many others? He was supreme lord and master of all he surveyed - how dare anyone stand in his way?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2005, 06:26:01 AM »
Wow! I'm feeling a little out of my depth here!
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Elisabeth

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2005, 07:23:48 AM »
No reason to feel out of your depth here, Prince Lieven. Your contributions have not gone unnoticed - you have made a number of invaluable points. I, too, think Henry was horrible and cruel, a despicable character. The question is, was he born that way or did he become that way, and why? What do you think?

As for Mary, I, too, would like to think she was his favorite child (although, considering what a male chauvinist Henry was, I rather suspect Edward supplanted her). But I'm intrigued by what you said about Henry having an inferiority complex, and would like to hear more from you about that, because it's an aspect of his personality I have never considered before.

BTW, I'm a moderator, so I get to show off, but feel free to throw darts at me whenever you feel like it, just as you already do at Arianwen, or so I'm told! ;) (Isn't it nice to know we have such a open and friendly atmosphere here at the AP Forum?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2005, 07:39:11 AM »
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No reason to feel out of your depth here, Prince Lieven. Your contributions have not gone unnoticed - you have made a number of invaluable points. I, too, think Henry was horrible and cruel, a despicable character. The question is, was he born that way or did he become that way, and why? What do you think?

As for Mary, I, too, would like to think she was his favorite child (although, considering what a male chauvinist Henry was, I rather suspect Edward supplanted her). But I'm intrigued by what you said about Henry having an inferiority complex, and would like to hear more from you about that, because it's an aspect of his personality I have never considered before.

BTW, I'm a moderator, so I get to show off, but feel free to throw darts at me whenever you feel like it, just as you already do at Arianwen, or so I'm told! ;) (Isn't it nice to know we have such a open and friendly atmosphere here at the AP Forum?)


LOL!! So, Arianwen has being telling tales, has she?

In answer to your questions, I think that maybe Henry's inferiority complex stemmed from being over-shadowed by his brother Arthur until he was nearing his teens. Henry's character longed to be noticed - he was that kind of person. But Arthur was always the centre of attention. That said, there is no record of Henry ever being jealous of Arthur. It's possible he may also have felt inferior to Catherine of Aragon - she more pious, more noble and more popular than he could ever hope to be. Jane Seymour, on the other hand, suited him down to the ground - she would never try to upstage him, intentionally or not.

Though he was a chauvinist, I think he could be gallant towards women when he wanted - Princess Mary Rose was his favourite sibling.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2005, 07:57:11 AM »
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LOL!! So, Arianwen has being telling tales, has she?

In answer to your questions, I think that maybe Henry's inferiority complex stemmed from being over-shadowed by his brother Arthur until he was nearing his teens. Henry's character longed to be noticed - he was that kind of person. But Arthur was always the centre of attention. That said, there is no record of Henry ever being jealous of Arthur. It's possible he may also have felt inferior to Catherine of Aragon - she more pious, more noble and more popular than he could ever hope to be. Jane Seymour, on the other hand, suited him down to the ground - she would never try to upstage him, intentionally or not.

Though he was a chauvinist, I think he could be gallant towards women when he wanted - Princess Mary Rose was his favourite sibling.


Okay, Prince Lieven, it's all your fault if I'm ignoring my husband and family responsibilities: I had already logged out but your insightful post has just dragged me back to the forum... I simply must respond!

IMO your observation about Henry being a younger brother sheds a whole new light on his need to excel in everything. One of my favorite stories about the young Henry is how he displayed his calves to the French ambassador and demanded to know if Francis I had calves as fine as his... He was always competing with whoever was near. You are right, that could very well have been the result of a childhood rivalry with Prince Arthur.

And as you say, Catherine was too good for him, literally and figuratively, and Jane Seymour was so passive she would never dream of competing with him. The one time she stood up for herself, in defending the monasteries, she quickly backed down. But it's interesting that Mary remained Henry's favorite sister, even after she had directly disobeyed him by marrying Charles Brandon in secret... I wonder if Henry didn't show a pattern of being very attracted to strong, assertive females (Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Katherine Parr) that was in direct conflict with his need to dominate and overpower everybody. As Tsarfan has argued, Henry was a man in perpetual conflict with himself, so that would make sense.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2005, 08:09:55 AM »
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So in addition to the reasons you have enumerated, don't you think it was also Henry's newly awakened lust for power that drove him to commit such extreme acts of cruelty as the executions of Thomas More and Anne Boleyn, among so many others?


I think it was a lust for power, but I think that lust was fuelled by the inner horror of usurping the pope's role in England.  I think that act engendered a certain paranoia in Henry.  If he could dislodge a pope's hegemony, what then might someone do to dislodge his?  I think Henry began to see danger in allowing anyone to disagree with him, malice in any form of resistance to his will.  In short, I think Henry came to live in fear of others employing his own methods against him . . . and he tried to manage that fear by proving to himself and others that he had means at his disposal well beyond any they could employ against him.

I also think spendthrift habits combined with greed got stirred into the brew.  Seizing the Church's property in England instantly converted Henry from a deficit spender to the richest king in Europe.  Not a reason he would have attacked the Church in the first instance . . . but not an opportunity to be missed, either.

Henry's daughter Elizabeth was probably the most astute observer of Henry's psychology who was on the scene.  And I think we can detect the traits she felt most destroyed Henry's balance by looking at the choices she made in her own reign.

Elizabeth was careful with her spending, lavishing funds on those things that had public relations value but being outright penurious with other expenses.  While hugely mindful of her regal status, she was slow to infer lese majeste from others' actions and loathe to execute anyone.  She took huge personal risk in her reluctance to assault Mary Stuart's royal status.  She allowed an unusual degree of freedom of religious conscience, not wanting to shoulder responsibility for dictating the path by which others came to God.

And, most significantly of all, she viewed the providing of an heir as more the province of those who came after her than as her primary duty as monarch.  From this, I deduce that Elizabeth felt that much of what destroyed her father's humanity and turned his reign into a carnival of excess arose from that cascade of events unleashed by his determination to provide an heir he thought suitable for England.  In effect, while ostentatiously professing to carry King Harry's legacy forward, she made the defining drive of his reign the one thing she was most determined not to take any risks to accomplish.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2005, 09:31:54 AM »
My apologies to your family, Elisabeth. Re Henry's spending - perhaps it had something to do with how tight his father was with money, and how, as a result, his court was very austere. Henry VIII set a lot of store on images - he wanted his court to be more lavish than that of Francis I.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2005, 10:14:34 AM »
Of course I cannot possibly back up what I think with any sources, but i wonder wether being son number 2- the "spare" so to speak,he was his mum's favorite. If they had a close and loving relationship ( well, as close as possible in a royal household at that time), he would have been devastated by her dying with him just entering his teens. This could possibly have quite a profound effect on his character development. I don't think he was born cruel though. Just a thought.
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2005, 10:34:13 AM »
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Wow! I'm feeling a little out of my depth here!


Don't . . . your posts are quite insightful, and it's great to see a young person spending time this way.  I wish the internet and a site like this had been around when I was taking my first dips into the pool of history.  

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2005, 10:43:23 AM »
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Of course I cannot possibly back up what I think with any sources, but i wonder wether being son number 2- the "spare" so to speak,he was his mum's favorite. If they had a close and loving relationship ( well, as close as possible in a royal household at that time), he would have been devastated by her dying with him just entering his teens. This could possibly have quite a profound effect on his character development. I don't think he was born cruel though. Just a thought.


You may well be right that it impacted Henry on some deep level.

There was another aspect to his being "the spare" that definitely played a role.  Henry was originally destined for the Church.  He took his preparation for the role seriously, and being the energetic, intellectually intense boy that he was, he applied himself to some of the more arcane aspects of Church law and teachings.  It was an intriguing intellectual puzzle for him in his youth, and it gave him the means to be personally involved in strategizing his later moves against the Church.

I think his early intimate involvement with Church dogma and the violence with which he broke the bond parallels the way he later separated himself from Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn.  To force himself to move at all, he had to move heartlessly.  Henry's subtlety in convoluted doctrinal argument did not extend to subtlety of action.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2005, 01:52:44 PM »
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Don't . . . your posts are quite insightful, and it's great to see a young person spending time this way.  I wish the internet and a site like this had been around when I was taking my first dips into the pool of history.  


Hey, thanks! You guys are all clever enough to bring out the best in me! Its great to have someone to talk about royalty to (none of my family are interested - I always feel I'm boring them!).

Re Henry admiring spirited woman, as was said, I totally agree. He liked his women to have a little spunk, at least  when they were mistresses, like Anne Boleyn. But once she became his wife, her volatile personality was an embarrassment. Of course, we should remember that Henry's attitude to women was the prevailing on e of the time among his nobleman contemporaries.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."