Author Topic: The Character of Henry VIII  (Read 28521 times)

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helenazar

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2006, 09:21:58 AM »
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Henry actually had good relations with the popes before the annullment debacle. He wrote a theological treatise (I beleve Catherine helped him) called "In Defense of the Seven Sacraments" for which the Pope gave him the title of "Defender of the Faith." He consulted Sir Thomas More on matters of canon law while writing his treatise and More told Henry that he was wrong to attribute too much secular authority to the Pope. How ironic!

In English church matters before the break, Henry pretty much already had things his way, because the Archbishop of Canterbury Cardinal Woolsey did his bidding in everything. I think the problems the common people had were with the wealthy and corrupt prelates like Woolsey and with some of the religious orders which were not always what they should have been, although many clerics and monks ran hospitals, took care of beggars, and repaired the roads. As far as Henry was concerned, however, it was not as if there were a series of clashes with Rome or theological disagreements. It was a fairly amicable relationship, l believe, until he tried to marry Anne.


Yes, Henry had a good relationship with the pope, until the pope would not go along with what Henry really wanted! I think Anne Boleyn played a large role in this, but only as long as Henry wanted her. At the same time it was also in Henry's own benefit to break with Rome at that time, which also made him a much richer man with a lot more power. So it fit in nicely with other things he wanted. So what it really came down to was that Henry did what Henry wanted, which was what benefitted him, and he was able to justify it in various ways, while he would not have anyone stand in his way - whether it was the pope, his ex-wife, his daughter, his second wife, his best friend - noone. I realize that this is a bit too simplistic of an overview, but it sort seems to be how things went for the most part...

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2006, 09:31:44 AM »
Is there a thread about Mary? I'll check.

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2006, 02:18:39 PM »
I think what people tend to over look most, because of the image perpetuated in our own times of a red-haired bellowing Bull, is that Henry was a very fickle man.  He allied himself to nothing with great fortitude or consistency and his whims ebbed and flowed: marriages, counselors, friends, politics, heirs, religion.  Nothing was stable, including his temper.  This great man was constantly on the move with nothing and no one to tie him down.  It is very unnatural.  Most people feel strongly about something, remain true to something their entire lives.  He did not.  Maybe he could not.  Because nothing lasted long enough to guide him, I think he lost his moral compass somewhere along the way and for most of his life lived fecklessly.

But that's just my opinion.  

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2006, 06:43:29 PM »
Helen_A and Tsarina Liz, I think you are both right.

nelly

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2006, 10:36:25 PM »
I agree also--which is why I think in the end his reign was a failure.  It took two more reigns and Elizabeth to rectify the state of the kingdom!

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2006, 10:38:08 AM »
Henry was a complicated character, and believed, and was encouraged to believe that anything he wanted he could get, and gave his life over to what  he wanted in everything. He wasn't loyal to much, and always liked to get his way, and always did which wasn't that healthy. His mindset is to be found in other rulers of this era, so that's common. But he pushed things to extremes, and no one ever forced him to be loyal to anything, and to him, if it was new it was better. If he broke any taboo, he coudn't stop. He was a showman, even though he left a mixed legacy to England in the end. Great in some ways, in the change he spearheaded, he was very bad in others. It is true that people like showman, and are indeed seduced by razzle-dazzle, because it makes life a bit more interesting. All his life Henry did thinfs in a larger than life way.

As for religion, he seems to have been a relatively conservative Catholic king as long as it served his interests. Once it didn't, his loyalty to the pope was out the door. He defintely continiued to worship in predominantly Catholic manner, however. He was very interested in religious law, and things of this sort, and he had a questioning nature, but perhaps not much of a personal concept of religion. All too often, what he did politically was in the guise of religion, and one could argue that he cared more about getting his way. Anne was a factor in the change, but perhaps Henry woudn't have been content anyway, given his nature. She was there at the right moment, and everything just came together from there. He did want a male heir, and whether a French Princess or Anne Boleyn gave him it, he might not have cared, but she was there, he was in love with her, and she refused to be his mistress, so there you go.

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2006, 01:22:22 PM »
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Henry was a complicated character, and believed, and was encouraged to believe that anything he wanted he could get, and gave his life over to what  he wanted in everything. He wasn't loyal to much, and always liked to get his way, and always did which wasn't that healthy. His mindset is to be found in other rulers of this era, so that's common. But he pushed things to extremes, and no one ever forced him to be loyal to anything, and to him, if it was new it was better. If he broke any taboo, he coudn't stop. He was a showman, even though he left a mixed legacy to England in the end. Great in some ways, in the change he spearheaded, he was very bad in others. It is true that people like showman, and are indeed seduced by razzle-dazzle, because it makes life a bit more interesting. All his life Henry did thinfs in a larger than life way.

As for religion, he seems to have been a relatively conservative Catholic king as long as it served his interests. Once it didn't, his loyalty to the pope was out the door. He defintely continiued to worship in predominantly Catholic manner, however. He was very interested in religious law, and things of this sort, and he had a questioning nature, but perhaps not much of a personal concept of religion. All too often, what he did politically was in the guise of religion, and one could argue that he cared more about getting his way. Anne was a factor in the change, but perhaps Henry woudn't have been content anyway, given his nature. She was there at the right moment, and everything just came together from there. He did want a male heir, and whether a French Princess or Anne Boleyn gave him it, he might not have cared, but she was there, he was in love with her, and she refused to be his mistress, so there you go.


Exactly!  One thing I could never understand in Henry is why he thought he could be so feckless with his loyalties and his politics (including religion), what made him think there were to repercussions (well, there never really were any, I guess).  Was it simply because of the crown?  I cannot think of one prince as flippant with his beliefs as Henry.  Or was it just something in his nature, or something from childhood (perhaps a reaction to his father's parsimony)?

ilyala

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2006, 02:02:19 AM »
i think he was a lot like a spoiled moody woman ;D... he wanted to have his way and had it no matter what. he found excuses for everything he did to everyone and maybe even to himself. he felt himself persecuted whenever something went wrong, like the whole world was rallying up to do him wrong... i don't find him so extraordinary, i've met plenty of people who are like that. the unfortunate thing was that he was a king and that his moodiness had a strong effect on many other people....

usually people like that are people who are spoiled. while henry 7th has a reputation for being cheap, he never spared any expenses when it came to appearances. which means he probably gave his son just about everything... materially speaking. knowing henry 7th he was probably a not so good parent, meaning that henry 8th was the typical poor rich kid, having lots of money, position but no actual parents... today those kids turn to drugs, alcohol, extreme sports, whatever suits them to play the rebellion. a prince in those days turned... like henry :)

bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2006, 09:44:09 AM »
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i think he was a lot like a spoiled moody woman ;D... he wanted to have his way and had it no matter what. he found excuses for everything he did to everyone and maybe even to himself. he felt himself persecuted whenever something went wrong, like the whole world was rallying up to do him wrong... i don't find him so extraordinary, i've met plenty of people who are like that. the unfortunate thing was that he was a king and that his moodiness had a strong effect on many other people....

usually people like that are people who are spoiled. while henry 7th has a reputation for being cheap, he never spared any expenses when it came to appearances. which means he probably gave his son just about everything... materially speaking. knowing henry 7th he was probably a not so good parent, meaning that henry 8th was the typical poor rich kid, having lots of money, position but no actual parents... today those kids turn to drugs, alcohol, extreme sports, whatever suits them to play the rebellion. a prince in those days turned... like henry :)


I'm sure this is true. I'm thinking maybe his mother had a lot of influence over him, rather than his father. She had charge of her younger children, Henry and Mary, and although she died when he was 12 she was responsible for his formative years. He was already an attention seeker at this stage - witness his scene- stealing activities at Arthur's wedding!

After Arthur's death I'm sure Elizabeth would have told him that whatever he did he should make sure that he looked after himself before thinking of anyone else. She must have thought of what had happened to her brothers, and been determined that it wouldn't happen to her surviving son. Just my theory!

Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2006, 04:15:22 PM »
Well, I don't think he was breast fed for long enough ;D ;D (or maybe he was breast fed for too long :o ::))
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Tsarina_Liz

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2006, 05:36:48 PM »
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Well, I don't think he was breast fed for long enough ;D ;D (or maybe he was breast fed for too long :o ::))


Or maybe the problem is that he was breastfed, just not by mommy meaning he never connected to the women in his life.  To him, they were all just wet nurses and never the real thing.   :'(

As for his behavior, I cannot recall one prince that set the precedent for behavior like Henry's.  He was very unique in his flippancy and moral acrobatics.  

ilyala

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2006, 01:11:12 AM »
i've made this comparison before but i can think of ivan the terrible when i think about henry. even the number of wives fits ;D... and the heir problem...


bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2006, 03:01:36 AM »
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i've made this comparison before but i can think of ivan the terrible when i think about henry. even the number of wives fits ;D... and the heir problem...



Though Ivan the Terrible wasn't just mean to his wives - he massacred entire cities (e.g. Novgorod). I think Ivan enjoyed being cruel, whereas Henry saw it as a regrettable necessity to keep himself on the throne. Ivan was even cruel to animals  :'( , and managed to kill his own son in a fit of temper - I can't imagine Henry doing this!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

ilyala

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2006, 05:54:39 AM »
true, henry wouldn't have killed his own son, because for henry having a son was a lifelong purpose. however, while not deliberately being cruel to people, i can see him closing his eyes and making himself believe that being cruel can be good... he may not have been a sadist but he was selfish enough to kill people for his own purposes and that's almost just as bad.

Elisabeth

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2006, 01:45:07 PM »
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true, henry wouldn't have killed his own son, because for henry having a son was a lifelong purpose. however, while not deliberately being cruel to people, i can see him closing his eyes and making himself believe that being cruel can be good... he may not have been a sadist but he was selfish enough to kill people for his own purposes and that's almost just as bad.


I don't think Henry was even in the same league as Ivan the Terrible in terms of murderousness. Ivan IV was a mass murderer at the very least; all other things being equal, if he were born today he'd probably be a serial killer as well. There were well-defined periods in his life when he was quite obviously pathological. Whereas Henry always had a political purpose behind his acts of cruelty and he never took sadistic pleasure from them. In fact, it became well known among his courtiers that even if you were in deep trouble, if you could gain a personal audience with Henry then the king might prove susceptible to pleas for pity (e.g., the famous incident with Katherine Parr). I think Ivan was infinitely worse than Henry and certainly the damage he wreaked on Russia was far more serious and long-lasting than that sustained by England under Henry VIII. A lot of historians view Ivan the Terrible's reign as the beginning of Russia's major historical problems.