Author Topic: The Character of Henry VIII  (Read 28520 times)

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ilyala

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2006, 02:45:07 PM »
katherine parr succeeded to stay alive not only because she was smart but because she was useful to henry, as a nurse, and she was not dangerous enough to discard that. had the person who requested an audience been an actual threat to henry, i'm sure no amount of brains could have saved them

bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2006, 03:07:14 AM »
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katherine parr succeeded to stay alive not only because she was smart but because she was useful to henry, as a nurse, and she was not dangerous enough to discard that. had the person who requested an audience been an actual threat to henry, i'm sure no amount of brains could have saved them


Slightly off topic but apparently it's a myth that Katherine Parr acted as nurse to Henry, bathing his ulcerated legs etc. Tudor Queens did not do this! They had servants for things like that.

I think Katherine was potentially dangerous to Henry (think Thomas Seymour), and she was pretty close to losing her head at one stage. this was the incident to which Elisabeth refers. She was smart enough to allay his fears - and he seems to have trusted her. I'm not sure I would have! :D

Begging for mercy from Ivan would most likely result in having your hat nailed to your head, or being sewn up in animal skins and thrown to the wolves!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2006, 01:41:10 PM »
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Slightly off topic but apparently it's a myth that Katherine Parr acted as nurse to Henry, bathing his ulcerated legs etc. Tudor Queens did not do this! They had servants for things like that.

I think Katherine was potentially dangerous to Henry (think Thomas Seymour), and she was pretty close to losing her head at one stage. this was the incident to which Elisabeth refers. She was smart enough to allay his fears - and he seems to have trusted her. I'm not sure I would have! :D

Begging for mercy from Ivan would most likely result in having your hat nailed to your head, or being sewn up in animal skins and thrown to the wolves!



Whew!  That Ivan: Henry comparison came at me from left field, wasn't really expecting that!  I'm not an expert on Ivan, but besides his penchant for blood how was he on political and religious matters?  Waffling (like Henry) or stuck?

But what about Francis I?  The Hapsburg rulers, etc.?  How do you guys think Henry compared to them?  I still think Henry was the most back and forth ruler of his time.

And, Bell, even with the servants isn't is possible that to coddle and humor Henry Katherine did take her share of nursing duties?  She ultimately seems like a compassionate person and no better time to whisper religious nothings in his hear than when he's down for the count.


nelly

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2006, 05:13:14 PM »
Remember that Katherine Parr was used to dealing with older husbands--he was the third she had married.  Perhaps there was some sort of nursing duty involved with Lord Burgh and Lord Latimer, too!!  However, I rather doubt it was hands on nursing--that's what servants are for!!

One more thing about good ole Henry--he always managed to be elsewhere when his wives were arrested or sent away.  Even the story about Katherine Howard running screaming down the gallery toward the chapel at Hampton Court where Henry was at mass is doubtful.  He was at Whitehall by then.

I agree that he was no mass murderer on the scale of Ivan, but his subjects caught in the dissolution of the monasteries and the Pilgrimage of Grace didn't exactly find the experience pleasant...  >:(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by nelly »

bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2006, 01:10:44 AM »
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And, Bell, even with the servants isn't is possible that to coddle and humor Henry Katherine did take her share of nursing duties?  She ultimately seems like a compassionate person and no better time to whisper religious nothings in his hear than when he's down for the count.



It's certainly possible but there's no evidence she did so, and as I say it wasn't at all usual or expected. Henry had fleets of doctors and apothecaries in attendance besides all the servants. Katherine may have visited him (once) during his final illness (December-January 1546/7), but again there is no evidence.

Her influence over him is surely overrated. Although she was definitely a reformer - and discussed religion with him, this didn't alter his opinions one bit! He died with the same (catholic) views he had held throughout his life. In the last year of his reign he had Anne Askew burnt for denying transubstantiation, and instructed for prayers to be said for his soul (in chantries!) after his death.




bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2006, 01:19:31 AM »
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But what about Francis I?  The Hapsburg rulers, etc.?  How do you guys think Henry compared to them?  I still think Henry was the most back and forth ruler of his time.





Francis and Charles spent most of this peiod fighting each other for hegemony in Europe. They were even prepared to ally with the Sultan if necessary (well, at least Francis was!)

Most of the fighting took place in Italy, and on one occasion (1527) Imperial troops sacked Rome, killing many inhabitants and most of the Swiss guards. Henry and the Popes were caught up in this situation and had to get by the best they could!

ilyala

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2006, 02:00:34 AM »
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It's certainly possible but there's no evidence she did so, and as I say it wasn't at all usual or expected. Henry had fleets of doctors and apothecaries in attendance besides all the servants. Katherine may have visited him (once) during his final illness (December-January 1546/7), but again there is no evidence.

Her influence over him is surely overrated. Although she was definitely a reformer - and discussed religion with him, this didn't alter his opinions one bit! He died with the same (catholic) views he had held throughout his life. In the last year of his reign he had Anne Askew burnt for denying transubstantiation, and instructed for prayers to be said for his soul (in chantries!) after his death.






ok, let's put it this way: henry married her. why? it wasn't a wild attraction like anne boleyn and catherine howard. it wasn't because he needed an heir. he already had one. why marry her, then?

i think he married her for her soothing personality. she took care of his children, she took care of him. by nursing duties i didn't necessarilly mean binding his legs, putting pillows behind him (although i'm sure that must have happened too once or twice)... but when you are ill, you like someone to cheer you up. catherine was a nurse, not necessarilly physically, but a person to take his mind off things. a person to have a pleasant conversation with and forget you have an ulcerating leg. a person who will take your mind off your kids because she's taking care of them. i'm sure henry had lots of doctors to take care of him. but doctors weren't paid to have conversations with him.

she wasn't very dangerous in the sense that she didn't organize a rebellion. she didn't mean to convert anyone. she was probably an intelligent person, proud of her intelligence, who liked debating... so she debated religion... but i'm pretty sure that i've never heard of her as an ardent protestant, more of the moderate type. there was no danger coming from her...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by ilyala »

bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2006, 11:32:02 AM »
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ok, let's put it this way: henry married her. why? it wasn't a wild attraction like anne boleyn and catherine howard. it wasn't because he needed an heir. he already had one. why marry her, then?

i think he married her for her soothing personality. she took care of his children, she took care of him. by nursing duties i didn't necessarilly mean binding his legs, putting pillows behind him (although i'm sure that must have happened too once or twice)... but when you are ill, you like someone to cheer you up. catherine was a nurse, not necessarilly physically, but a person to take his mind off things. a person to have a pleasant conversation with and forget you have an ulcerating leg. a person who will take your mind off your kids because she's taking care of them. i'm sure henry had lots of doctors to take care of him. but doctors weren't paid to have conversations with him.

she wasn't very dangerous in the sense that she didn't organize a rebellion. she didn't mean to convert anyone. she was probably an intelligent person, proud of her intelligence, who liked debating... so she debated religion... but i'm pretty sure that i've never heard of her as an ardent protestant, more of the moderate type. there was no danger coming from her...


I think he married her because he wanted a wife, not a nurse. You're right to say that he valued her intelligence - when she visited him they tended to talk about religion etc. It may be that she fluffed up his pillows occasionally!

He also wanted someone to be Queen. Katherine was regent while Henry was away in France for almost four months in the summer of 1544.

I suppose we'll never know what exactly her religious views were while Henry was alive. She embraced protestantism after his death. It's safe to say she was open to reformed ideas - though neither side could be certain she was on their side.


Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2006, 03:13:27 PM »
I think that he was, by this time, a sad, lonely old man, drifting apart from his daughters and needing the comfort of a caring wife by his side. Gone were the heady days of passion and romance, he was looking for a quieter kind of homely loving and this he found in Katherine. There was also the knowlege that Tom Seymour wanted her which would add an extra fillip to the marriage. I think he (as much as he could) had a great deal of respect for Katherine and as far as nursing him goes ...I am with Bell on this. She plumped up his pillows and chattered on about "stuff" that would take his mind off his crumbling body.
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bell_the_cat

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2006, 01:37:57 AM »
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There was also the knowlege that Tom Seymour wanted her which would add an extra fillip to the marriage.


Kimberly!! :o

You're probably right though.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2006, 11:06:58 AM »
Well, you can't say that Henry VIII was a saint, but he wasn't as bad as Ivan the terrible, although he might have been had he lived in country were he was allowed to be more out of control. In England, there were some safeguards to power. Ivan left a mass of destruction in the wake of his life, which Henry might have done a bit too. However, Henry's legacy was a dynamic one, that had as much good as bad, although some of the people caught up in the saga of his reign, the more negative parts would only say bad. It is true that much of what he did had negative impact. But he did leave more than just a gaudy showiness that glimmers through the centuries.So he wasn't half as bad, although he was a monster in some ways, true.

As for Katherine Parr, he married her when the heady days were over indeed, and no doubt he wanted more peace and quiet. She was a woman who was more quiet, and would not be like his other wives. She was an intelligent woman, who served her role well, whatever needed doing. I am sure actual nursing would have been more done by servants than anything else. He most likely woudn't have married her when he was younger, but after all his other wives, her safeness and quiet was appealing. She had experience of older husbands as well.

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2006, 01:15:34 PM »
Somewhere in my childhood, I read in a book that Henry VIII was the first king to demand he be called "Your Majesty."  This stuck with me.  Can anyone confirm it?  If it is true, then I think it says quite a bit about the character of Henry VIII.  

Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2006, 01:26:43 PM »
I think it was his darling daddy Henry VII wasn't it
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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2006, 10:13:26 AM »
Yes, it could have been. Interesting antcedote, isn't it?

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: The Character of Henry VIII
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2006, 08:11:18 AM »
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Yes, it could have been. Interesting antcedote, isn't it?


Quite interesting because for me "majesty" is a natural title for a ruler so it's hard to imagine one ruler (especially so recently in history) beginning the title out of nowhere with no precedence.