Author Topic: "Bloody Mary"? (Mary I)  (Read 87761 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2005, 11:11:30 AM »
Hmm . . . could be umigon. Or, as I only just found out,
Henry VIII was the first monarch to use his numeral in proclamations - before him, Henry VII for example would have styled himself 'King Henry' whereas Henry VIII was 'King Henry the Eight'. Perhaps Mary (though she was in fact proclaimed Mary I) wanted to be just known as Queen Mary, though the people didn't call her that because it sounded like they were speaking of a Queen consort - thus, they called her (and still do) Mary Tudor.
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elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2006, 09:36:25 AM »
Helen_A, Ilyala and I were just discussing the character of Mary Tudor, so here is a thread about her already started.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

helenazar

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2006, 09:54:25 AM »
Thanks, E_M, I will bring my post over here.


Quote

When I used the term "fanatical" (which may sound too harsh but I don't know what else to call it), I didn't mean just in religion, I was referring to her [Catherine of Aragon] personality in general. Catherine saw things in either "black" or "white" and there was no compromising, even when a compromise would have been beneficial to all involved, including herself and her child. Mary was very similar... Based on what we know about Isabella, her grandmother, she was similar too. These personality traits don't just apply to religion, but they tend to spill over into religion.  I don't think in Mary's case it had much to do with her parents' divorce, IMO it was there already.
In any case, what I was trying to say is that extreme  personality traits like this can be volatile and are not traits of a good ruler (at least not a moderate stable ruler)... As we saw with Mary.



elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2006, 09:55:12 AM »
I think that Mary the potential to be a great queen, if her parent's divorce had not crashed in upon her in her sensitive teenage years, she who had been the cherished only child until then. Yes, Elizabeth had a troubled childhhod, too, but her troubles started at age three, which made her tough. Mary grew up as the heir to the throne, and suddenly became an outcast, separated from her beloved mother Queen Catherine. Helen_A pointed out that Mary's mother and grandmother (Isabella of Castile) were both too black and white about everything (rigid?) and that Mary was just like them (true) which would have prevented her from being as great a queen as Elizabeth, whether or not her parents divorced.

I do think, however, that the divorce made Mary more extreme, and more neurotic, than she otherwise might have been. Also, many rulers in those days, even great rulers like Isabella, were rather black and white, "rigid" as we would say today, in matters pertaining to religion. Both Henry VIII and Elizabeth had people executed for having religious beliefs different from their own, although Elizabeth did not have as many killed as Mary did.  But Mary had lost her sense of proportion.

I still maintain my opinion that Mary initially had the potential to be a good ruler if her world had not been turned upside down. But we will never know for certain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

ilyala

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2006, 06:52:15 AM »
well, as i already pointed out on the henry character thread i think that this kind of black and white policy did not fit the english people very well... while countries like spain and russia were very good with absolute rulers, england has always been a country where the most flexible and rational monarchs were the most successfull.

also another idea from the henry thread: the divorce i think just underlined character traits that were already there. maybe they could have been much less strong without it but they were there... just like they were there in the case of her mother, grandmother and sister...

Offline lady

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2006, 07:05:24 AM »
I recommend The children of Henry VIII; (formerly Children of England) by Alison Weir learn about the relationships between Mary, Edward and Elizabeth. About Mary, the book helps the reader to understand different aspect of her character.
As Elizabeth was growing up she began to resemble more and more to Anne Boleyn and that was too much for Mary. And Mary also said that Elizabeth had the face and countenance of Mark Smeaton. Of course Elizabeth resembled Henry VIII a lot, even more than Mary did but Elizabeth for Mary was a living reminder of all that Catherine of Aragon suffered because of Anne.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lady »

Offline lady

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2006, 07:19:22 AM »

Lorelei_Lee

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2006, 10:04:54 AM »
I think the divorce also was a tremendous personal tragedy for Mary in that it robbed her of the chance to marry and have children.  After the divorce her status was totally ambiguous, and by the time she was restored to the succession she was 30 or so ... not the optimal age for conceiving a first child.  Mary seems to have loved children--consider her affection for the very young Elizabeth--and I can't help but feel that if she had been able to marry and have children she would have been much happier.  Probably not a better queen, but happier.

My general read on her personality is that she was a genuinely good woman who lacked the right qualities to be a good queen regnant at the time she was called upon to play that role.   Elizabeth did have those qualities in spades, and I think Mary has suffered by comparison.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2006, 10:58:49 AM »
I've always thought that Mary's religion was something of a comfort blanket for her through her 'wilderness years' - the early days of her parent's divorce, and most of Edward's reign. She said to Edward:

'There are only two things: soul and body. My soul I offer to God, and my body to Your Grace's service, and so it may please you to take away my life rather than the old religion in which I desire to live and die.'
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2006, 11:52:57 AM »
Quote
I recommend The children of Henry VIII; (formerly Children of England) by Alison Weir learn about the relationships between Mary, Edward and Elizabeth. About Mary, the book helps the reader to understand different aspect of her character.
As Elizabeth was growing up she began to resemble more and more to Anne Boleyn and that was too much for Mary. And Mary also said that Elizabeth had the face and countenance of Mark Smeaton. Of course Elizabeth resembled Henry VIII a lot, even more than Mary did but Elizabeth for Mary was a living reminder of all that Catherine of Aragon suffered because of Anne.


That sounds like a good read! Thanks for the recommendation!

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2006, 12:01:35 PM »
I understand what you all are saying about Mary being too black and white, too rigid to rule successfully in England. But how was she any different from her father and her sister Elizabeth, who also passed rigid laws against people who had different religious beliefs from the status quo? (Yes, she did have more people killed than Elizabeth, I acknowledge.) Practically EVERY ruler in those days were very black and white when it came to things like religion, except Mary, Queen of Scots. Just look at the situation in France - practically everybody in those days was fighting over religion and having people executed, not just Mary Tudor.

helenazar

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2006, 12:59:33 PM »
IMO, Elizabeth was very moderate about religion (particularly for that era). The people she executed were those who were a threat to her power/life. Religion did not seem to be very important to Elizabeth, and her rule was actually pretty tolerant towards other types of religious beliefs.

Mary on the other hand, had more of the Inquisition mentality, i.e. "we have to kill them to save them". If this is not religious fanaticism, then I don't know what is...

Henry was also different in a sense that he would "bend the rules" when it would benefit him, under the guise of being pious, in other words, he was a hypocrite. But this means that he was not fanatical and knew "when to walk away or when to run"....

Mary was completely different from her father and from her sister. She was, in many ways, an exaggerated version of her mother, Catherine.

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2006, 01:22:36 PM »
Yes, I agree that Mary was fanatical and it was hideous what she did.  What I am trying to understand is why she is so condemned for killing people for "religious reasons" while Elizabeth is excused because she was not devout  and it was only to save her own life that she had people put to death (although what threat Margaret Clitherow, Anne Line, and Margaret Ward were to Elizabeth's life, I will never understand). And Henry is excused because he was crazy Henry and did whatever he wanted anyway. This is the general accepted historical view of the situation and I am really trying to understand the reason for it.

helenazar

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2006, 01:37:39 PM »
Quote
Yes, I agree that Mary was fanatical and it was hideous what she did.  What I am trying to understand is why she is so condemned for killing people for "religious reasons" while Elizabeth is excused because she was not devout  and it was only to save her own life that she had people put to death.


I suppose it has to do with intention... or perceived intention. Elizabeth put people to death as a form of self preservation - "self defense" if you will, and she seemed to do it very reluctantly, even when the threat to her was very evident and intense (as in the case of Mary Stuart).

In Mary I's case, it was not due to self preservation for the most part, but due to self righteous and fanatical religious feelings... one of the worst reasons to put someone to death. IMO, there is a big difference between the two. Even in the modern world, intention, not just the act, makes a big difference...

As far as I am concerned, Henry should not be excused for his behavior, he was a tyrant (more so  towards the end of his life), but some of what he did often made some sort of political sense because at the time the Tudor dynasty was not yet fully established and still on very shaky ground.  


















elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Bloody Mary (Mary I)
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2006, 01:48:42 PM »
I do think that Elizabeth felt guilty for the deaths of people including Mary Stuart, and would have avoided it if possible. I think Mary was heartbroken and unhappy by the end of her reign but she truly thought she had done the right thing, especially since her adored husband had urged her to bring in the Inquistion. I am just looking at the end result in the case of each queen, which was the deaths of many people because they followed the faith of their choosing. For instance, now-a-days, a suicide of a teenager in the Middle East for supposed "religious" reasons and the suicide of an American teenager out of despair both have the same result - a dead young person, and an unspeakable loss. (Sorry to be morbid but that is the best way I can think to make my point.)