"Bloody Mary"? (Mary I)

[Romanov_fan]

I very much agree with the last two paragraphs of the last post. It is easy to say that Elizabeth wasn't really religiously tolerant, etc. But, it wasn't possible then to be like that. Today, you are expected to be, and are ( except in some parts of the world ), but then, no matter your personal inclinations, your duty as a ruler was to be on one side or the other. Some were less extreme than others, and tried to be as a moderate as possible regarding religious questions, as Elizabeth I did. But then it was impossible to be as religiously tolerant as we would smile on. It would not have entered anyone's head, and some rulers were real fanactics, others just inept at coming to a religious settlement, like Catherine de Medici. Elizabeth did the best she could, and actually did very well in her religious policies. I think it's unfair it say she wasn't tolerant, because by the standards of her age, she was. As for her sister, she wa very passionate about religious questions, and less astute about ruling, and perhaps more of her age than Elizabeth was. But it is unfair to call her Bloody Mary, given that she meant well, and lived in a very different era than today, one she was very much part of, in thought, and deed. From our vantage point in history, and of history, we should try to be tolerant, as we are not living in the 16th century, and have not that excuse.

[FaithWhiteRose]

It is arguable that most of her subjects didn't want to be Catholic, and I think she gets a fairly bad rap because of the executions. They were heinous, but they were governmental policy, in much the same way that "Elizabeth's" execution of Mary Queen of Scots was really Walsingham's. The center of the reform movement was London, and the bulk of the executions were cityfolk. Catholicism persisted in the outer areas until well into the 17th century.

I think the saddest thing about Mary is her lack of desire to rule, and her inability to do it well when she attained the throne (much like a Certain Someone more prominently feautured on the rest of this board!). She would have been perfectly happy in the role of wife and mother, but to save her own life had literally no other choice after the death of Edward but to fight for the throne. Northumberland would certainly never have let her live in the event that the Jane Grey queenship succeeded. In the end, it was fortunate that she died. Elizabeth had more of the temperament to rule that was needed.

However while the executions may have bee mainly governemental policy, she was an absolute monarch so the responsibility for those executions lie in the end with her, as it does with any head of state.

I think Mary is a good of example of people taking religion much too seriously.

Katherine of Aragon's memory sorta made her do that. The religion change was also abrupt for Mary. Whenever someone says 'Mary Tudor' or 'Mary I' I don't think of Bloody Mary.

[libgirl2]

She didn't perceive herself to be "nasty and cruel".  She honestly believed that she knew what was best for people and that what was best was bringing Catholicism back to the country and eliminating Protestantism.   She honestly believed that Protestants had to die in order to save their souls.  

She also saw Elizabeth as a threat, and who wouldn't?  Elizabeth was beautiful and young.  Mary was aged beyond her years.  Elizabeth appeared to be fertile (being young.)  Mary experienced great difficulty getting pregnant.  Elizabeth was popular with the people - Mary was not.  Elizabeth's supporters were bound and determined that Elizabeth would become Queen.  Mary desperately wanted a CATHOLIC heir.  She knew that if she died leaving only Elizabeth as an heir, all of her work was for nothing.  

I had read in one particular book that Mary was a woman in desperate need of affection and how she would have been so happy with a husband who loved her and kept her with a bellyful of children!

[mcdnab]

It is rather an oversimplification to state that Elizabeth was responsible for the deaths of more Roman Catholics than Mary I was responsible for the deaths of protestants. 

Firstly irrespective of our own view - neither of them "murdered" anyone.  A legal execution (whatever our views of the death penalty) is still a legal act. 

Secondly - Mary I reigned for five years and although figures are debatable around 300 protestants died during that five years.  Elizabeth I reigned for 45 years and the figures of Catholics who died is similar - however most Protestants who died under Mary I died under heresy laws (they died for their religious convictions) however under Elizabeth the majority died under treason and related charges (Elizabeth's purges varied whilst Mary's were quite consistant - Elizabeth's increased particular during the mid reign after her excommunication and from Norfolk's plot right through to the death of Mary Stuart).

With reference to centuries of anti catholic propoganda - i think there is an element of truth in it - BUT I would point out that in England today there are numerous churches and schools dedicated to the varying English Catholic Martyrs and virtually none dedicated to the memory of the many many Protestants who died for their faith under Mary I.

"I have been watching this thread since it started and the title of this thread is offesive to Catholics. As we all well know Elizabeth I murdered more Catholics than Mary I murdered Protestants. The thread should be changed from Bloody Mary to the neutral Mary I. I call upon Romanov Fan or the moderator to make this change. Centuries of anti-Catholic propoganda have made the name Bloody Mary de rigeur among English speakers but it is just as offensive as referring to Elizabeth I as the Heretic Elizabeth or the Bastard Queen."

[Kimberly]

I am working on it Mcdnab. I will do what I can. Whilst we are on the subject, does anyone know in which century the "nickname" originated from?

[mcdnab]

Kimberley sorry i was quoting an earlier post on the moan about "bloody mary" - as far as i am concerned its fine to call the thread that or anything else - Mary is a much misunderstood woman and its easy to feel sympathy for her.  However much she believed in what she was doing - she still sent hundreds to a gruesome death in order to save their souls - the bloody will always stick.  Its not so much about anti catholic propogranda but the reality of her reign!  her actions did more damage to the revival of Catholicism in England than almost any other act apart from the Gunpowder Plot.

[Mari]

I did a little research on the name Bloody and I could not find an exact date or quote as to the origin. Perhaps someone who has access to Manuscripts  in the British Archives can answer the question. What I did find is how horrible She was mistreated during the five years her privileges were removed. Even to the point that Anne Boleyn encouraged her to be slapped and vocally abused. Henry VIII came to visit Elizabeth and would not even see her. The Protestant Religion was forced down her throat along with agreeing to terms that were very cruel for Mary to accept. Perhaps this hard School encouraged her in thinking.... this was the best way to discourage Protestantism. I wonder if some of it might not have been getting even also. It is human nature.  Of course We know the results were the opposite of bringing the Church back to the Catholic Religion.

[libgirl2]

As a Catholic, I am not offended by the title of this thread. That said, I do feel sorry for Mary and it is sad that she is known by that title, but her reign is remembered by its prosecution of "heretics", the burnings, the unrest...... just as Henry VIII is remembered for his wives.

[Silja]

As a Catholic, I am not offended by the title of this thread. That said, I do feel sorry for Mary and it is sad that she is known by that title, but her reign is remembered by its prosecution of "heretics", the burnings, the unrest...... just as Henry VIII is remembered for his wives.

While I also consider the denomination unfair, it's just as subjective to call Mary I "bloody" as it is subjective to call Catherine II or Frederick II or Peter "the Great". Those titles reflect the values and attitudes of the respective age in which those denominations became popular. This is of course all not politically correct .

[Maria_Pavlovna]

I feel the most sorry for Mary.  . I really think her father and Anne B, they were the monsters (but at the end, I feel sorry for all of them). Henry basically mess up everyone's life and his own! 

[FaithWhiteRose]

BTW, does anyone else find it strange that she is nearly always referred to as 'Mary Tudor' rather than the more proper Mary I. Elizabeth is never called Elizabeth Tudor.
 

I always gathered that Mary became "Mary Tudor" because of when Henry VIII married Anne Boleyn, her royal title was stripped from her.  She became a bastard. And though the same happened with Elizabeth, Elizabeth became a prosperous queen with a prosperous reign. Besides, more people are familiar with "Elizabeth I" than "Mary Tudor" or "Mary I".

[Romanov_fan]

I read this on another thread but on the Richard III's society's webpage ( I checked their webpage) it is listed that Mary I died of congenital syphilis. Does that ring true to anyone? It didn't to me.

[Mari]

I have read tumor...and also influenza besides congenital syphilis.  the Author Agnes Strickland states that Mary lay for weeks on end as if dead. She also mentions descriptions of her head being horribly swollen and her having to lay for hours with her knees propped up. However, I believe the Richard III site is highly thought of by English Historians. Perhaps Kimberly would know....

[Kimberly]

Hi yes, Imperial Angel, is this the American Society because I have had a quick look and can find nothing on the "English" websites for the Society. Any chance you could give us the URL thanks. I too have seen causes of death ranging from influenza, pituitary tumour, uterine/ovarian tumour but not congenital syphilis.
I thought we had looked at wether Henry VIII had "The Great Pox" (syphilis) and that this notion had been ruled out because there is no evidence of him being treated with Mercury. Most interesting.

[Kimberly]

I found it, its the New Zealand branch of the society.
Anyway, I can clear something up in that apparently, Mary died DURING an outbreak of Influenza (but not necessarily OF Influenza)