Author Topic: Rasputin and Nikolasha  (Read 8502 times)

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Offline Annie

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Rasputin and Nikolasha
« on: August 02, 2005, 09:29:51 PM »
This is interesting. Nikolasha, as husband of one of the "Black Plague" Montenegran princesses, was instrumental in bringing Rasputin and his influence into the palace. However, in time, Rasputin labeled him a bad guy, and they turned against each other. What was behind this, and when and how did it happen? Does anyone know the story? Also, is it true Nikolasha once physically attacked Rasputin for using him, then badmouthing him? How did all this happen, and what made Nikolasha, and Stana and Militsa, change their minds?

Offline Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 06:35:39 AM »
I know that during World War I, while Nicholas was still in charge of all forces Rasputin offered to come to headquarters and bless the troops.  Nikolasha famously said: "Come ahead, I'll hang you"  Rasputin declined to go!

dca

Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 07:00:07 AM »
Oh yeah! That was bad! I wonder how it all went wrong and what happened?

Offline Grigorevna

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2005, 03:31:22 AM »
The history of Nikolasha and his outfall with G.E goes something like this. Nikolasha was quite popular amongst the Russians - sometimes he was referred to as "Nikolaj III". He was a strong man with outspoken views on things. When he saw the influence that Rasputin gathered, and Alix' blind faith in him, he was worried and spoke his mind. I think that Rasputin had all the reasons in the world to fear this enemy, since he was so powerful and had the tsars admiration as well.

But when Nikolasha revealed himself as an "enemy" to "Our Friend", Alix quite simply talked Nikolaj into having Nikolasha transferred - and take his place himself. An absolute crucial mistake, according to me.

This was what happened, in short.

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Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2005, 10:55:36 AM »
Yes, it was a crucial mistake. He had been a great leader, and his loss hurt the army.

So it was seeing the negative influence on Alexandra that made Nikolasha change his mind?

Offline Grigorevna

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2005, 01:14:26 PM »
Yes, and I think he reconsidered his veiw on Rasputin quite fast - heard all the rumors and thought of him as a fraud.

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Finelly

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 09:55:44 PM »
I think it was the Princess Sisters who introduced R into the palace and to N and A, not Nikolasha.  As I recall, he and his wife weren't particularly close and he didn't buy into all of her mystical junk.  So there may not ever have been a change of heart.

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2005, 08:44:35 AM »
Quote
I think it was the Princess Sisters who introduced R into the palace and to N and A, not Nikolasha.  As I recall, he and his wife weren't particularly close and he didn't buy into all of her mystical junk.  So there may not ever have been a change of heart.



Finelly is quite correct.  It was the two Montenegran princesses who introduced Rasputin to the Empress, after they had already introduced an entire series of charlatan physicians, clairvoyants, soothsayers, and the like.

Finelly, can you help me please?  Did the two Montenegran princesses introduce Rasputin directly to the Empress or did they do it by way of Vyrubova?  Somehow I recall it was through Vryubova, but I could be mistaken.

Thank you.


Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2005, 11:17:27 AM »
Quote


Finelly is quite correct.  It was the two Montenegran princesses who introduced Rasputin to the Empress, after they had already introduced an entire series of charlatan physicians, clairvoyants, soothsayers, and the like.

Finelly, can you help me please?  Did the two Montenegran princesses introduce Rasputin directly to the Empress or did they do it by way of Vyrubova?  Somehow I recall it was through Vryubova, but I could be mistaken.

Thank you.



I know it was the princesses, I even mentioned them in my first post, but because one was married to Nikolasha, he was in on it at the time. In the movie, it was him, but of course the movie is not totally accurate. At the time Vyrobova was very young, I think she became a supporter through Alexandra, not sure though.

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2005, 11:23:39 AM »
From Nicholas' diary:

1 November (1905). ...We went to Sergeevka at four.  We had tea with Militsa and Stana.  We met the man of God Grigory from the province of Tobol...In the evening I packed and did a good bit of work, and then I spent the rest of the time with Alix."

However, there is another version of the meeting, and it comes frm Col. Dmitry Loman, who bult the Feodor Cathedral.  He stated at an appearance before an investigative commission in 1917 that Rasputin first went to the palace as a result of having sent a letter to the Tsar requesting an audience and asking if he could give the Tsar a special icon.  (Radzinsky, The Rasputin File)

What is interesting about this version is that N appears to refer to this audience in a letter to STolypin on Octrober 16, 1906 (two weeks before the tea at Militsa and Stana's!):

"16 October 1906.  A days ago I received a peasant from the Tobolsk province...who brought me an icon of Saint Simeon of Verkhoturye....He made a remarkably stron gimpression on Her Majesty and me.  And instead of five minutes, our conversation lasted well over an hour......I very much hope that you will find a moment this week to receive him."

According to Radzinsky's research, Militsa thought she was responsible for introducing Rasputin to the Empress, but they met him earlier, and concealed this fact from her.  I do not know why.  

Offline Johnny

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 05:21:07 PM »
Nikolasha did have a change of heart regarding Rasputin. Although it is probably true that Militsa was more instrumental in introducing Rasputin to Alexandra, but both Stana and Nikolasha were initially major Rasputin fans, too. Nikolasha like his wife and sister-in-law was into mysticism and in the beginning liked Rasputin. The sisters also seemed to use Rasputin as a means of influence over Alexandra. But when Rasputin decided to bypass them and deal with Alexandra on his own, the sisters turned against him and naturally Nikolasha followed their example. As with everybody who turned against Rasputin, the sisters and Nikolasha too ended up on Alexandra's black list.
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Offline Grigorevna

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2005, 08:02:55 AM »
Yes, Johnny, that sounds absolutely like I have understood it as well. I think that Nikolasha's first opinion on Rasputin might have been one of the most important reasons why Nikolai decided to see him at all. This said only with some knowledge of the relationship between the two Nikolais, and not based on any particular facts or diarys.

//Grigorevna

Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2005, 10:27:11 AM »
Very interesting, thanks guys!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2005, 02:27:34 PM »
It isn't true that Nicholas II removed Nikolasha as Commander-in-Chief because of any personal feelings of any kind.  This was about war and defeating the enemy.  Nikolasha was sent elsewhere and as far as I know,  Nikolasha never condemed Nicholas II for his move.  It appears,  people, who wish to continue to shed bad light on Nicholas II often use this military change as if it had something to do with Alexandra and her association with Rasputin and this is incorrect.

Quote
Remember,  this was at a time things were not looking very good for Russia.  German troops were scaring the bejebbies out of the enemy with their "Big Bertha", a huge cannon that seem to shake the world with each blast, they had airplanes that were raking roads, front lines, etc., they had so many bullets that the Germans were even selling a few to their enemies....  

Nicholas II discovered his uncle, Nicholas "the Tall" was making some bad decisions and the Germans were pushing him back....

It's been awhile since I've read some of this military stuff but it doesn't show Nicholas II in a terrible light as many of you suggest.

His hopes were to show his troops that he wasn't afriad of being right up front with them, unlike the generals who were way behind the lines ....  When it got to hot, they just moved farther behind the lines.....

It was worst in the Russo-Japanese War.  Many of the real old generals had died or left their commands.....

Nicholas II was the first to demand that the medical tents be sent up along the front.....  He had set up trains to take the wounded back to hospitals.... But guess who stoped them with their strikes?  The Bolshesviks.

Remember,  Nicholas II had two different wars going on at the same time.  The war with German and the war with the revolutionaries.....

AGRBear


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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Rasputin and Nikolasha
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2005, 07:51:38 PM »
It depends upon what you call "personal"; if you read the correspondence between Alix and Nicholas through 1914-1915, you can detect increasing hysteria on her part regarding what she felt was Nikolasha's upstaging of Nicky. She thought he was getting above himself and abrogating decisions and actions to himself that were properly the Emperor's. The letters aree pretty harsh, and in his replies you can see the Tsar attempting to be conciliatory, but eventually surrendering to the avalanche of words coming from Tsarskoe Selo. If he did indeed remove the Grand Duke to placate Alexandra, I would call that personal. It would be hard to imagine Wilhelm II doing that for Dona, or Karl I for Zita.
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