101 Reasons AA was not FS.

[Mgmstl]

There was a great deal more on this subject on these threads at one point.  However one of the keys of the discussion was the timing of the disappearance of FS, the appearance of AA, and when the Schanzkowski Family was told by the Berlin Police that their daughter had been murdered by Grossman.

The family had accepted this fact until 1927 when they were approached by Von Rathlef & Voller for a meeting with the claimant.

[Finelly]

 They broke the news to the Schanzkowsky family, and they laid Franziska to rest until 1927 when the Berliner Nachtausgabe disinterred her.  

They had a body?  It was buried somewhere?  It was disinterred?

Can anyone say "DNA"?

[Finelly]

Helen!  You're back!

What are your science credentials?  I understand you're our resident dna expert......

[RealAnastasia]

29- The Detective Knopf, who "found" FS story, was working and payed by Grand Duke Ernest of Hesse. All the info the Detective found, made it way to Darmstadt before it reached the "Nachtausgabe". The Grand Duke was also paying some journalist in this newspaper. (Robert K. Massie-Harriet Von Rathlef-Dominique Auclères-Peter Kurth9

30- Gilliard was Gand Duke Ernest ally "...who -in Robert K. Massie's words) soon was sspending as much time in Darmstadt as he was in Lausanne. Somebody said that he was being PAID for the GRand Duke (Robert K. Massie-Rathlef-Peter Kurth)

RealAnastasia

More to Come!

[Helen_Azar]

Helen!  You're back!

What are your science credentials?  I understand you're our resident dna expert......

Actually, I am not back - I am still in Russia until the end of the month, but I check in once in a while  .

I am a biochemist, but by no means ever claimed to be a DNA expert - but all this stuff we have been talking about is extremely simple, basically any grad student in sciences can understand it. This is why I understand it well, and try to share what I know - because I see a lot of confusion as well as false info floating about these threads.  And I know that there are many people who actually would like to understand real facts!

Helen

[Forum Admin]

Helen,
The Soviet/ Gulag comment was not called for. Please apologize to Bear. We are really cracking down on the personal sniping stuff.
Now, some comment is ok, but the basic tone of this thread is a "top 100 reasons" list, so keep comments brief, and best perhaps to post in other "Top 100" list thread the full comment and perhaps just say "See Reason #xx in Why she was FS...or wherevever.

Thanks
FA

[RealAnastasia]

Thank you, FA. You are right. My post are too long, you are right on that too! I'll try to write my answers more shortly!  

RealAnastasia

[Helen_Azar]

AGRBear, thousands of apologies! I really didn't mean it because I know that you don't really want to work for the Gulag! I will cross that comment out in my post immediately.  

[RealAnastasia]

31- Harriet Rathlef contacted, (with the help of her attorney, Herr Völler)  the Schanzkovska family to bring one of its members, Felix, to go see AA. Felix would recognize her or not. The "Nachtausgabe" , the paper who had discovered Franziska's story and claimed to be the one who "unmasked AA", avoided to contact the Schanzkovskys. They seemed not to want an interview with "The Sick Lady". (Harriet Von Rathlef- Peter Kurth)

32- Harriet Rathlef, nor Völler payed Felix Schanskovsky to come to see AA and recognize her as hir sister. The "Nauchtasgabe" payed to Doris Wingender when she "inmediatly recognize" AA as FS. (Harriet Von Rathlef; Peter Kurth)

33- Doris Wingender complained to Wilhelm Völler, who invited her to dinner in the Hotel Regina Palast, about the "Nachtausgabe" contract...They payed too badly. She was expecting much more than fifteen hundred marks. Then, Völler said to her that the contract could be easily broken. Doris agreed, and said that all papers in Germany were fighting to have her for them. And of course, they would paid much better (Harriet Von Rathlef- Peter Kurth)

34- Doris Wingender told Völler (she believed he was a journalist, not Mrs. Rathlef's attorney) that she "changed" some little things in her story for the people of the "Nachtausgabe" told her to do so. Doris said that she saw Franziska for the last time in May or June, but the paper stated that it was in August, so she must change the whole thing (Harriet Von Rathlef-Peter Kurth)

35-AA didn't pay any attention to "Schanzkovska affair". She was only angry when someone introduce Doris Wingender to her (as she was easily angry when she had any other visits...Remember Irene's one, whe AA was so harsh to her). After it she was more upset tothe poor Harriet Rathlef for writing her story in the newspapers, that to the Schankosvka whole matter. The Duke von Leuchtenberg tryed in vain to make her understand who serious "The Schankosvka Affair" was.(Peter Kurth)

More to come!

RealAnastasia.

[RealAnastasia]

I suppose they mean to "desinterre" the story, not a body...And yes; if there is a body DNA must be performed. I'm only afraid that the results would said there is Grand Duchesse Anastasia's corpse!  

RealAnastasia.

[AGRBear]

..[in part]...
 
There are copies of Grossmann's trial transcripts -- or the German version thereof -- extant in at least one town in Germany.  Berlin, as we all know, was hideously bombed by the Allies at the end of WWII, and many, many buildings were destroyed along with their contents.  One of these buildings stored Berlin police records and archives; however, then as now, there were people interested in the phenomenon of what came to be known as serial killing.  At least one of these people, a doctor of psychology, had copies of documents from Grossmann's trial -- and his descendants allowed Greg and I access.
 
German court procedure is a little different from that of the US.  Here, a killer might be responsible for ten or twelve murders, but will only be charged with one or two so that there are still live cases against him should anything go wrong with the prosecution.  Grossmann's trial was not like that.  He was charged with a list of murders, some of them identified only by the name he placed in his own diary.  The evidence given was short and sweet and fairly d**ning -- he was caught red-handed (literally) with the semi-dismembered body of a young woman in his "shop."  There was also the evidence of his own hand, in the form of his diary.  Evidence was given in several specific victim cases, but not in all of them.  In the list of victims he was accused and convicted of murdering was the name "(female) Saznovski."  
 
This was the individual whom the Berlin police believed was Franziska Schanzkowska.  In the course of their lengthy investigation, in which they identified victims known by only one name -- like Saznovski -- information included in missing persons reports were cross-matched with the victimology, including what Grossmann had written in his diary.  What was written about Saznovski was sufficient for the Berlin police -- a highly regarded professional body -- to conclude that Saznovski was Franziska.  They broke the news to the Schanzkowsky family, and they laid Franziska to rest until 1927 when the Berliner Nachtausgabe disinterred her.

Reread Michael G.'s post about FS's body having been "disintered" in 1927.

Does this mean a body was removed from a grave or was her murder brought to the public by notice to disclose her death in the hands of Grossmann by the Berlin police?

No one has every mentioned a body having been found.  

Why would the police find the need to make a public notice seven years later?  

Here in the US I think it's seven years after a person's disapearance that  the person can be declared legaly dead for purpose of legal actions.  

Where did you find this tid-bit Michael G.?  Trial transcripts??

AGRBear

[Mgmstl]

Reread Michael G.'s post about FS's body having been "disintered" in 1927.

Does this mean a body was removed from a grave or was her murder brought to the public by notice to disclose her death in the hands of Grossmann by the Berlin police?

No one has every mentioned a body having been found.  

Why would the police find the need to make a public notice seven years later?  

Here in the US I think it's seven years after a person's disapearance that  the person can be declared legaly dead for purpose of legal actions.  

Where did you find this tid-bit Michael G.?  Trial transcripts??

AGRBear

WAIT A MINUTE HERE FOLKS!!!, let's not be so quick to jump to the gun on this statement.

This is from an old post of Penny's and by using disenterred, I think she is referring to her memory or her "spectre" not her body.  In previous threads I believe we established there was no body found.

Remember the body of FS wasn't found as Grossman ground his victims into sausage or hamburger and sold them to his neighbors.

[AGRBear]

Michael G.,  thanks for clearification.  

AGRBear

PS  There is a thread on Grossmann and FS:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1121632735;start=0#0

[Finelly]

This is from an old post of Penny's and by using disenterred, I think she is referring to her memory or her "spectre" not her body.  In previous threads I believe we established there was no body found.

Darn it!

[RealAnastasia]

WAIT A MINUTE HERE FOLKS!!!, let's not be so quick to jump to the gun on this statement.

This is from an old post of Penny's and by using disenterred, I think she is referring to her memory or her "spectre" not her body.  In previous threads I believe we established there was no body found.

Remember the body of FS wasn't found as Grossman ground his victims into sausage or hamburger and sold them to his neighbors.

My! What a subject dear Michael! So, there were "Hamburger à la Franziska Schanzkovska" and "Special factory Worker Sausages"? UGH!... He really sold the ground meat of his victims???

RealAnastasia-