Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs

[Sylvia]

Hi!
I am not sure wether this is the right place at this board to ask following question, but I figured it would be best anyhow.

-When N&A held audiences, what were the general rules for the visitors towards them? It must have been very different depending on rank, but were there any rules in general that you had to obey? (For example, no touching, no turning of your back to the emperor etc?)

-Wich kind of people were granted audiences? Did the 'Security' have any saying in theese matters?

-What was the general procedure to be granted an audience for someone not familiar to the IF?

Thanks, you guys.  

//Grigorevna

[hikaru]

I think that we did not discuss enough matters like that .
I do not remember, if the people in the theater had to applaud to Imperial Family when they appeared in the Royal box?

[Svetabel]

I think that applauding was considered too vulgar for the Imperial family. The people only roused and bowed to the Romanovs.

[Tsarina_Liz]

I think that applauding was considered too vulgar for the Imperial family. The people only roused and bowed to the Romanovs.

Really?  I know that bowing was mandatory, but why was clapping considered vulgar?  

[David_Pritchard]

Dear Liz,

Clapping is a group form of showing aprobation. The Imperial House of Russia did not require the approval of it's subject but rather signs of respect, for example bowing. One would think that clapping would have been perceived by an Imperial Family member as rather insulting, since it is the method in which public performers are thanked by a crowd. Cheering on the other hand, under the correct context would be much more acceptable than clapping.

Since we are discussing the protocol and etiqutte of clapping, I have another example of improper clapping, clapping in a church. At a cathedral I once attended regularly it was normal practice to have a pianist, a string quartet and a half dozen classically trained singers. After the grander music selections were played during the Mass, the parishoners would clap. I was highly embarassed for the musicians and vocalist as well as embarassed for my fellow parishoneers display of collective ignorance. It seemed that the concept that the musicians and vocalists were performing for God escaped those in attendance and therefore did not require nor wanted any public show of approval for their efforts.

David

[Tsarina_Liz]

Dear Liz,

Clapping is a group form of showing aprobation. The Imperial House of Russia did not require the approval of it's subject but rather signs of respect, for example bowing. One would think that clapping would have been perceived by an Imperial Family member as rather insulting, since it is the method in which public performers are thanked by a crowd. Cheering on the other hand, under the correct context would be much more acceptable than clapping.

Since we are discussing the protocol and etiqutte of clapping, I have another example of improper clapping, clapping in a church. At a cathedral I once attended regularly it was normal practice to have a pianist, a string quartet and a half dozen classically trained singers. After the grander music selections were played during the Mass, the parishoners would clap. I was highly embarassed for the musicians and vocalist as well as embarassed for my fellow parishoneers display of collective ignorance. It seemed that the concept that the musicians and vocalists were performing for God escaped those in attendance and therefore did not require nor wanted any public show of approval for their efforts.

David

Clapping is a traditional form of approval (something the IF could have used more of).  And they were nothing more than public performers, something they failed to grasp.  But that is besides the point I guess.

In any case... I have been to performances of symphonies and theaters here and abroad, from cathedrals to public venues, and in all cases clapping was very appropriate and very welcome.  If it wasn't frowned on in the Frankfurt Cathedral or in the Globe after a moving performance of Julius Caesar, I doubt it's much of a faux pas.      

[David_Pritchard]

Clapping is a traditional form of approval (something the IF could have used more of).  And they were nothing more than public performers, something they failed to grasp.  But that is besides the point I guess.In any case... I have been to performances of symphonies and theaters here and abroad, from cathedrals to public venues, and in all cases clapping was very appropriate and very welcome.  If it wasn't frowned on in the Frankfurt Cathedral or in the Globe after a moving performance of Julius Caesar, I doubt it's much of a faux pas.  

A Mass in a cathedral and a performance in the Globe Theater are two very different venues, very different social contexts. Clapping is not the traditional form of approval for members of the Russian Imperial House. There is a great difference between an autocrat like Nicholas II and a constitutional figurehead like the King of Sweden. One rules and the other is shadow of a past office.

I have noticed from this post and many of your other posts that you have difficulty in separating yourself from the social realities of 2006 in order to properly understand the social and historical context of the actions of others. If one were to always judge the past by the conventions of today, nothing would ever be understood in its proper context. Of course you are not alone in this, many if not most people are unable to suspend their present day moral and social understandings in order to grasp more fully those of another time period or culture.

To clap at a Mass or for royalty is simply feral behaviour and not something of which one should be proud or even admit to doing.

David

[Tsarina_Liz]

A Mass in a cathedral and a performance in the Globe Theater are two very different venues, very different social contexts. Clapping is not the traditional form of approval for members of the Russian Imperial House. There is a great difference between an autocrat like Nicholas II and a constitutional figurehead like the King of Sweden. One rules and the other is shadow of a past office.

I have noticed from this post and many of your other posts that you have difficulty in seperating yourself from the social realities of 2006 in order to proerly understand the social and historical context of the actions of others. If one were to always judge the past by the conventions of today, nothing would ever be understood in its proper context. Of course you are not alone in this, many if not most people are unable to suspend their present day moral and social understandings in order to grasp more fully those of another time period or culture.

To clap at a Mass or for royalty is simply feral behaviour and not something of which one should be proud or even admit to doing.

David

Anyways... to those still interested in the topic at hand: there's something I've always wondered, when you come across a royal (say you came across Alexandra in the park) did you have the right to speak first or must you wait to be spoken to?  You know, just something to store away for the next time I pass a royal...  

[David_Pritchard]

Dear Liz,

I think that it is correct in these modern times to initiate an appropriate but short greeting when passing a royal or a high noble in a public palce, for example if you passed Princess Michael of Kent in Harrod's, "Good afternoon Your Royal Highness". You of course would continue on your way rather than trying to start a conversation about the ban on fox hunting. A short respectful greeting rather than forcing a conversation is correct the form. However, if you were at a garden party or other private function and had not yet been introduced, you should wait for the royal to initiate the conversation.

David

[Tsarina_Liz]

Dear David,
 Thanks for that.  And thank you for being nice  

Now what about back then, oh wise one?
- Liz

[Azarias]

Hey, you know what David?  I say this with love and fairy-dust... fine!  I roll over.  You are the God of this board, I bow to you.  I am just a stupid, confused little girl.  Now please go smite some other unsuspecting mortal and leave me in peace please...

Anyways...  Â 

Perhaps I am not quite as polite as Mr. Pritchard but none-the- less equally apalled by the lack of manners and civility displayed at times these days.

Watching on television the funeral of John Paul II as well as other public figures, I cringed that the assembled people actually began to applaud as the coffin is paraded by. As far as I am concerned this is near barbaric, and I am not a fossil of some ancient time either.

The better tribute would be a display of restraint and have total silence in a large crowd - something nearly impossible these days.

Clapping in church or at funerals is never proper, period!

Sorry Tsarina_Liz, but judging from your speech here and on other threads of the Forum, you'd do better to not approach a royal. Greater care could be taken with the rest of us too. Your manners are lacking.

And who says "anyways" anyway?

[David_Pritchard]

Dear David,
  Thanks for that.  And thank you for being nice  

Now what about back then, oh wise one?
 - Liz

Dear Liz,

Do I not always try to answer questions to the best of my ability? I think that this qualifies as being nice?

One hundred years ago, an average person with manners would bow or curtsy and then wait until spoken to if the royal was in a public place.

In a private venue one would wait for the royal to be introduced in a reception line and then one would have waited until the royal spoke first before returning the greeting. If the royal were making rounds of a party, one would still wait until spoken to. In a more informal private event one might address a royal directly after introductions or greetings had been made unless one was on very good terms with the royal and your example of direct speech would not demean their standing and dignity in the eyes of others.

David

[Tania]

Dear David, and Azarias,

I'm in 100% agreement with your statements. I also have performed in varying places of worship. Many times I have found present day audiences have the lesser understanding of how to conduct oneself especially under these given issues. But as you have both pointed out, collective ignorance as well as individual ignorance continues. It certainly leaves one askance. I thank you for bringing this to public notice. Perhaps more of these notices should be shared with the public. However, most may not be sensitive to these important issues of conduct.

I wonder if many know of how they would respond to a King or Queen ? Does anyone know outside of you Azarias, or David ? Lol, now that's an unusual question...
But then again, that's not everyday ettiquette is it. LOL

Tatiana+

Dear Liz,

Clapping is a group form of showing aprobation. The Imperial House of Russia did not require the approval of it's subject but rather signs of respect, for example bowing. One would think that clapping would have been perceived by an Imperial Family member as rather insulting, since it is the method in which public performers are thanked by a crowd. Cheering on the other hand, under the correct context would be much more acceptable than clapping.

Since we are discussing the protocol and etiqutte of clapping, I have another example of improper clapping, clapping in a church. At a cathedral I once attended regularly it was normal practice to have a pianist, a string quartet and a half dozen classically trained singers. After the grander music selections were played during the Mass, the parishoners would clap. I was highly embarassed for the musicians and vocalist as well as embarassed for my fellow parishoneers display of collective ignorance. It seemed that the concept that the musicians and vocalists were performing for God escaped those in attendance and therefore did not require nor wanted any public show of approval for their efforts.

David

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Just to answer the question of whether you can speak before being spoken to when it comes to royals, I believe that you can't speak until you have at least been introduced.

Whenever I have seen footage of the Queen meeting and greeting people, the Queen approaches people, is introduced, the person curtseyes or bows, and the Queen says something along the lines of 'nice to meet you' and then the person meeting her speaks.  I have never seen someone intiate a conversation with the Queen in public without being introduced first.  I may be wrong, however, as I have never been in attendance to the Queen! I am just going on what I have seen.  Whether that was the case 100 years ago in Tsarist Russia, I am not sure, but I would imagine that if that's the way the Queen still does it, nothing much would have changed.

As for clapping, I went up to London for the Jubilee and everyone started clapping and cheering when the Royal Family came out onto the balcony.  They loved it, so I can't see why it would be deemed inappropriate.  It's a sign of appreciation and support.  Obviously in a church it may not be appropriate, but I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate in a public display of affection for a monarch.

Rachel
xx

[Tsarina_Liz]

I don't really get the church thing, I clapped all the time in German cathedrals after performances.  And I wasn't the only one so I doubt it's that big of a faux pas...  If clapping is so base, then how are people supposed to express their appreciation of the music?  Bow?  Smile ridiculously large?  As for church etiquette: http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/applause.htm  It's just religious anal-retentivity.  Deny human nature to please an omnipredicate being (who, if he was truly omnipredicate would probably care less what happened in church).  To sum up: going to mass/meeting/church/worship/temple is NOT the same thing as attending a concert in a church even if the performers are religious instead of secular.  Don't clap at a service, but clap at a performance.

But that is not necessary for the topic at hand...  

All of this etiquette.  Anyone know of any books from the Imperial era that give directions on proper behavior?  I have seen some American books and articles on etiquette from the era, but of course they don't really discuss royals.