101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Franz Svoboda, who "saved" Anastasia, knew her from his time as a guard in the Ipatiev house. Heinrich Kleibenzetl, who saw her in bed at the house where Svoboda had allegedly brought her, often saw her when entering the Ipatiev house to deliver or pick up uniforms for cleaning and repair.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

[Forum Admin]

Heinrich Kleibenzetl, who saw her in bed at the house where Svoboda had allegedly brought her, often saw her when entering the Ipatiev house to deliver or pick up uniforms for cleaning and repair.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Sorry, but not possible. See, if you bothered to do accurate research, you would know that the Imperial Family was rigidly sequestered in the Ipatiev House. Confined to their rooms on the second floor (or first floor for you Brits...) only leaving those rooms for their brief 20 minute walks in the walled up yard.  NO BODY saw them other than the guards on duty inside upstairs. EVER. This was part of the planned regime. They even went so far as to paint over the upstairs windows with whitewash so that they could not see out nor be seen from the street. ALL first hand accounts of everyone who delivered or dropped off anything concur on the fact that NO ONE went inside the house itself.  The items to be picked up were brought out the front door for them, and things left off were handed to a guard who took them inside.

Sorry, but NOBODY was "familiar" with seeing Anastasia because they did the laundry for the guards...most especially UPSTAIRS...Why would the laundry guy be UPSTAIRS ever when the guards rooms were all on the ground floor? Much less inside....

As we say locally, that dog don't hunt.

[ChatNoir]

FA, you have an excellent point there, and since I was not present, I just have to rely on testimony, whether true or false, from those who were. From Peter Kurth's "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson":

At Hamburg Heinrich Kleibenzetl produced his identity and work papers, which demonstrated that he had indeed lived in Ekaterinburg in July 1918; in fact, that he had been an apprentice to the tailor Baoudin in a building directly opposite the Ipatiev house. Kleibenzetl had been the one who repaired the uniforms of the soldiers guarding the imperial family. In that capacity he had often had to go into the house to fetch and deliver clothing, and had frequently seen the members of the family walking in the enclosed courtyard.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

[Forum Admin]

Well, I still have a problem with that statement. Here is the map of the grounds of the Ipatiev House, from Sokolov:



A is where anyone entered the compound.
B is the front stair where everone entered or exited the building and where tradespeople dropped off their wares
C is the closed gate where guards were posted during the brief walk periods of the IF.
Yard is the enclosed courtyard where they were permitted to walk.

I just don't see HOW anyone delivering clothing, and restricted to just walking between point A and point B to do so, would be able to see the IF walking in the enclosed courtyard, behind a closed gate ...unless they had Superman's XRay vision...

[Lemur]

Ah. Reality bites and smites fantasy once again.

[ChatNoir]

From the Tsar's diary, May 20: It was unbearable to sit that way, locked up, and not be in a position to go out into the garden when you wanted and spend a fine evening outside.
May 27: Finally got up and quit my bed, it was a summer's day, walked twice. The green is very fine and lush, a pleasant smell.
May 31: This afternoon we were let out into the garden for some reason.

Seems to me that they were walking in the garden (jardin) and not in the courtyard.
Heinrich Kleibenzetl testimony in Hamburg: One evening, however, a friend of Kleibenzetl's in the guard had come over to the Baoudins' to say that "something [was] happening." Kleibenzetl was curious. He had entered the courtyard carrying some uniforms: "The guards knew me, they didn't ask any questions, they were drinking." Kleibenzetl had hidden behind some boxes and suddenly heard gunshots, screams, and a single female cry: "Mamma!"
After being grilled by the Hamburg court for 6 hours, the judges could not find a single hole in his story.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

[Forum Admin]

From the Tsar's diary, May 20: It was unbearable to sit that way, locked up, and not be in a position to go out into the garden when you wanted and spend a fine evening outside.
May 27: Finally got up and quit my bed, it was a summer's day, walked twice. The green is very fine and lush, a pleasant smell.
May 31: This afternoon we were let out into the garden for some reason.

Please read carefully. "[highlight]for some reason[/highlight]". Clearly the Tsar was SURPRISED that for ONE time they were permitted in the garden and not the courtyard. ONE TIME...They May 27 quote can simply refer to the fact that one can SEE and smell the garden/grass from the rear side of the Courtyard.

As for the second part, we already KNOW for a stone cold fact (EVERY single first hand source from the night of the murders) agrees on at least one thing. The street outside was cleared of EVERYONE and there were no "soldiers" outside drinking and "hanging out..." Please, go read all the accounts...

Really, WHY do you insist on hanging on to the un-supported statements? I don't get it..

[AGRBear]

From the Tsar's diary, May 20: It was unbearable to sit that way, locked up, and not be in a position to go out into the garden when you wanted and spend a fine evening outside.
May 27: Finally got up and quit my bed, it was a summer's day, walked twice. The green is very fine and lush, a pleasant smell.
May 31: This afternoon we were let out into the garden for some reason.

Seems to me that they were walking in the garden (jardin) and not in the courtyard.
Heinrich Kleibenzetl testimony in Hamburg: One evening, however, a friend of Kleibenzetl's in the guard had come over to the Baoudins' to say that "something [was] happening." Kleibenzetl was curious. He had entered the courtyard carrying some uniforms: "The guards knew me, they didn't ask any questions, they were drinking." Kleibenzetl had hidden behind some boxes and suddenly heard gunshots, screams, and a single female cry: "Mamma!"
After being grilled by the Hamburg court for 6 hours, the judges could not find a single hole in his story.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Nicholas II's Diary>>May 31: This afternoon we were let out into the garden for some reason. <<

Evidently there was one day noted by Nicholas II, "...we were let out into the garden.".

On the map,  which part is the garden?

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

Bear,
Don't omit the important modifier "FOR SOME REASON".


On the map, "v" is a small garden, with a gate leading into "jardin" which is the larger garden. Hard to tell for sure which, but I suspect only the smaller garden as it was still enclosed fully and away from the street.

The prime directive from Moscow for all heads in charge of the Ipatiev House was to prevent any escape of the prisoners, for which they would pay with their lives if anyone DID escape. The would thus assuredly be kept as far from the street as possible at all times.

[ChatNoir]

Really, WHY do you insist on hanging on to the un-supported statements? I don't get it..

Well, as I have said before, I wasn't there, and neither was anybody else on this board. So therefore I have to go by the words of those who were. And in all fairness: Kleibenzetl said in his testimony that he had seen the IF walking in the courtyard. And he recognized the victim in his bed as "one of the ladies" Only Anna Baoudin identified her as Anastasia.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

[ChatNoir]

As for the second part, we already KNOW for a stone cold fact (EVERY single first hand source from the night of the murders) agrees on at least one thing. The street outside was cleared of EVERYONE and there were no "soldiers" outside drinking and "hanging out..." Please, go read all the accounts...

Kleibenzetl was NOT talking about the street outside, he was talking about soldiers inside the house.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

[Forum Admin]

"He had entered the courtyard carrying some uniforms: "The guards knew me, they didn't ask any questions, they were drinking."

Where does this say he went inside??

[ChatNoir]

"He had entered the courtyard carrying some uniforms: "The guards knew me, they didn't ask any questions, they were drinking."

Where does this say he went inside??

OK, so he went inside the courtyard, and was not inside the house. But he was also not referring to soldiers hanging out in the street outside.

And remember, 6 hours of badgering by the Hamburg court did not poke a hole in his testimony.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

[hellokitty2121]

Forgive me - but I don't quite see where this is going?

[CorisCapnSkip]

The most dramatic flipflop I ever saw anyone do regarding DNA testing was by historian Joseph J. Ellis, who wrote a book about Thomas Jefferson and was quoted on camera that it was "inconceivable" that a man of Jefferson's character had a sexual relationship with slave Sally Hemings, and that her mixed-race children must have been fathered by a Jefferson relative of lower moral calibre.  When legitimate descendants of Thomas Jefferson sure enough matched descendants of Sally Hemings, Mr. Ellis was quoted, again on camera, that it was "inconceivable" that the one child proven to be his, born when Jefferson was 65, was the product of a one-night stand at such an age--therefore Jefferson must have fathered the other children, too.  A description of the interview and comments by Mr. Ellis and other historians can be found here:  http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/thomas_jefferson/content_of_jeffersons_character/index.html  In the case of Thomas Jefferson, DNA testing set accepted historical theory on its ear.  In his case, for once, the salacious sensationalists were right!