Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme

[Sissi]

Thanks to Kora I have been able to post a picture!!!!

  I will post some more!!!!
Thanks Kora!!!

[Sissi]

[elena_maria_vidal]

What beautiful pictures! Thank you!

[coquelicot]

Hi, everybody !

The explanation given by Huertas for Louis betraying his wife is that, after his operation for his phimosis, he tried with someone... This was successful enough as to give birth to little Philippine.

After the death of Philippine's mother, Marie-Antoinette adopted her under the name "Ernestine". The writer believes it's the reason why Ernestine is mentioned in the "registre des enfants de France", where only king's children are.

I think this explanation is ridiculous. Why would Louis try with another woman ? Furthermore, we now suspect there was no operation at all, as you already said, elena-maria-vidal.

Huertas goes on noticing physical differences between little Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème. She wonders why, for instance, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte d'Angoulème has an aquiline nose, while Mousseline hasn't. Well... don't children's faces change a lot while getting older ? And doesn't Charlotte look like her mother ? But Monique de Huertas says Marie-Antoinette hadn't an aquiline nose neither !

The only point that made me think twice in her demonstration is the following : Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, still inprisoned in the temple, was nice, sweet and affectionate. Later, the duchess d'Angoulème was cold and distant.

Yes, I agree such horrible misfortune may change someone forever. And how ! But why so late ? Why this period when she was tender ? I really wonder...

Another detail, too... The writer says there's a huge difference between Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème's scriptures. I've checked that on a site, and it's true... Strange, isn't it ?

I actually don't know what to believe... Surely Louis didn't have any child with another woman than his wife. But is any substitution impossible ?

[elena_maria_vidal]

Hi, everybody !

The explanation given by Huertas for Louis betraying his wife is that, after his operation for his phimosis, he tried with someone... This was successful enough as to give birth to little Philippine.

After the death of Philippine's mother, Marie-Antoinette adopted her under the name "Ernestine". The writer believes it's the reason why Ernestine is mentioned in the "registre des enfants de France", where only king's children are.

I think this explanation is ridiculous. Why would Louis try with another woman ? Furthermore, we now suspect there was no operation at all, as you already said, elena-maria-vidal.

Huertas goes on noticing physical differences between little Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème. She wonders why, for instance, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte d'Angoulème has an aquiline nose, while Mousseline hasn't. Well... don't children's faces change a lot while getting older ? And doesn't Charlotte look like her mother ? But Monique de Huertas says Marie-Antoinette hadn't an aquiline nose neither !

The only point that made me think twice in her demonstration is the following : Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, still inprisoned in the temple, was nice, sweet and affectionate. Later, the duchess d'Angoulème was cold and distant.

Yes, I agree such horrible misfortune may change someone forever. And how ! But why so late ? Why this period when she was tender ? I really wonder...

Another detail, too... The writer says there's a huge difference between Mousseline and duchess d'Angoulème's scriptures. I've checked that on a site, and it's true... Strange, isn't it ?

I actually don't know what to believe... Surely Louis didn't have any child with another woman than his wife. But is any substitution impossible ?

Hello, again, coquelilot!!! Well, my dear, I  must say I do think that Marie-Therese had an aquiline nose when she was young.(BTW, Marie-Antoinette had quite an aquiline nose herself!) It became more accentuated as she matured, which was also the case with her cousin, Marie-Adelaide d'Orleans.

As for the handwriting, sometimes people's handwriting is altered by accidents and traumatic experiences. Only a professional graphologist can tell for certain.

Marie-Antoinette  formally adopted Ernestine and another little girl named Zoe to be "sisters" of Madame Royale, devastated by baby Sophie's death. But they were not sired by Louis.

[coquelicot]

Oh ? I knew about Ernestine. The two girls, her and Mousseline, were even dressed up like twins and raised together. I've read it was to lower Mousseline's hauteur.

I've never heard of this Zoé ? Could you tell me more ?

[elena_maria_vidal]

Zoe was a child of servants like Ernestine and she later became a Visitation nun. Therese was in contact with her after the Restoration. Ernestine was taken out of the country by an aristicratic family and died in exile. The queen would have kept the girls with her but she did not feel it right to endanger their lives. They all played together at Trianon with Artois' boys and knew each other very well.

[coquelicot]

Thanks a lot !

Never seen any mention of Zoé... Even Ernestine is often forgotten by biographers !

It seems Marie-Antoinette loved adopting children, mabe because she was raised in a big family, and she wanted that for her children too ? She considered "Guichette", Gabrielle de Polignac's daughter, as hers by adoption, she wrote with such concerns and tenderness !

[Sissi]

The story about Ernestine Lambriquet is in my opinion weird!!!! i have trouble beleiving that Louis XVI would have had a child outside the mariage, and even worse a test child!!! Why wouldn´t he test with his wife!!!??

 I know that there is record of Ernestine in the books of the Enfant the France, but in my opinion she could have been adopted as Marie Antoinette adopted some years earlier Jacques (rebaptised Armand) the little peasant she found on a road with his grandma.

[elena_maria_vidal]

Thanks a lot !

Never seen any mention of Zoé... Even Ernestine is often forgotten by biographers !

It seems Marie-Antoinette loved adopting children, mabe because she was raised in a big family, and she wanted that for her children too ? She considered "Guichette", Gabrielle de Polignac's daughter, as hers by adoption, she wrote with such concerns and tenderness !

So true!!

Ernestine and Zoe are mentioned in Vincent Cronin's "Louis and Antoinette" as well as the fact that both the king and queen loved children.  When they would walk in the gardens together, a parade of little children followed them. When she first came to France, Antoinette's menage was quickly infamous for the small children (she asked the servants to bring their children with them) and dogs romping about her glittering apartments.  She played hide and go seek with Mme Elisabeth who was a little girl when Antoinette got married. It was how she had lived all her previous life, surrounded by children and pets. (Much of what she later did was actually trying to recreate the childhood that she was ripped from at age 14. Most of her friends were several years older, not strange for the youngest daughter in a family of 16 children.)

Remember that little boy she adopted before she had her own children? I forget his name, but he later became a revolutionary.

[coquelicot]

Why wouldn´t he test with his wife!!!??  

Exactly ! It's the most stupid explanation I've ever read !

[elena_maria_vidal]

The story about Ernestine Lambriquet is in my opinion weird!!!! i have trouble beleiving that Louis XVI would have had a child outside the mariage, and even worse a test child!!! Why wouldn´t he test with his wife!!!??
 
  I know that there is record of Ernestine in the books of the Enfant the France, but in my opinion she could have been adopted as Marie Antoinette adopted some years earlier Jacques (rebaptised Armand) the little peasant she found on a road with his grandma.

Armand! That was his name! Yes, he was adopted the way Ernestine and Zoe were, but was no relation to the royal family.

[coquelicot]

Most of her friends were several years older

I had noticed it too... except for Fersen, born on Spt 4th 1755 and Vigée, also in 55 (in March, as far as I remember).
Louise de Lamballe and Gabrielle de Polignac were born in Spt 49.

I think you're right, she always desperately tried to find her familial nest back, most of all the magical friendship she had with her sister Carlotta, who loved her "extraordinarily".

How terrible it must be to be parted from one's family so young, and to be thrown in a so corrupt court !

She loved children, she loved pets, she loved flowers, trees, plants... she loved everything that lives ! She enjoied beauty, quiet, peace, too... and, surely, the sound of water. You can hear it softly murmuring when you rest in Trianon garden...

[elena_maria_vidal]

I had noticed it too... except for Fersen, born on Spt 4th 1755 and Vigée, also in 55 (in March, as far as I remember).
Louise de Lamballe and Gabrielle de Polignac were born in Spt 49.

I think you're right, she always desperately tried to find her familial nest back, most of all the magical friendship she had with her sister Carlotta, who loved her "extraordinarily".

How terrible it must be to be parted from one's family so young, and to be thrown in a so corrupt court !

She loved children, she loved pets, she loved flowers, trees, plants... she loved everything that lives ! She enjoied beauty, quiet, peace, too... and, surely, the sound of water. You can hear it softly murmuring when you rest in Trianon garden...

I agree with you completely, coquelicot! I had a similar experience at Trianon, especially when I first visited it in 1980, when it was all better maintained than when I visited in 1999. It was in the dead of winter when I first walked in Marie-Antoinette's gardens, but the birds were singing, and I experienced it to be a peaceful and serene place.

Some of Antoinette's male friends, such as the Baron de Besenval and even the Prince de Ligne, I believe, were older than herself as well. They were mostly foreigners, too, like Fersen.

[coquelicot]

Oh, yes ! There was Coigny, too... I think Besenval and Coigny were rather old gentlemen, weren't they ?

I've been to Trianon in 1989 or 90 (during the french destestable commemoration of their bicentenary...), in february. I immediately fell into the charm of this park, and never forgot it.

I went back recently, and back again... I would like to see this wonderful eden in all seasons, you know. Once, I saw a photo of Trianon gardens with snow. An enchantement !

But you're right, elena maria vidal ! It's as if some kind of magics was working there... I've been there in november, and the weather suddenly got nice ! It's beautiful when darker too, becoming more mysterious. And delightful when bright, with all these birds singing, these animals quiet, people gently wandering. It's a pleasure how respectful people are in this place !

We can be happy, now : huge reconstruction works has been done, and are still. We will soon be allowed to visit the hameau ! Finally ! It's a dream !