Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme

[elena_maria_vidal]

Oh, yes ! There was Coigny, too... I think Besenval and Coigny were rather old gentlemen, weren't they ?

I've been to Trianon in 1989 or 90 (during the french destestable commemoration of their bicentenary...), in february. I immediately fell into the charm of this park, and never forgot it.

I went back recently, and back again... I would like to see this wonderful eden in all seasons, you know. Once, I saw a photo of Trianon gardens with snow. An enchantement !

But you're right, elena maria vidal ! It's as if some kind of magics was working there... I've been there in november, and the weather suddenly got nice ! It's beautiful when darker too, becoming more mysterious. And delightful when bright, with all these birds singing, these animals quiet, people gently wandering. It's a pleasure how respectful people are in this place !

We can be happy, now : huge reconstruction works has been done, and are still. We will soon be allowed to visit the hameau ! Finally ! It's a dream !

Yes, Besenval was white-haired.

I would love to see it all now since the restorations. Thanks for letting me know! Your descriptions are lovely!!

[coquelicot]

Sissi, I'm very sorry... I've used the wrong topic. So, I've copied my message on the right one, and deleted it here...

I fully agree with you. She was an exceptionnal woman indeed !  

[elena_maria_vidal]

Trianon is an example of the kind of life the queen tried to design for her family, a place for her to be with her children away from the public gaze, although the gardens were open to the public on Sundays. The fact that Therese experienced such beauty as a child made the horrors that followed more difficult to bear, possibly, as well as creating a light in her mind that the darkness could not penetrate.

[Sissi]

It must have been hard for Marie Therese, she had been raised with care, love andsurrounded by luxury and beauty and all the finest things in the world, she was proud of being daughter of the king of France, and all of the sudden she is nothing! a prisoner, an orphan...
 That must have been terrible! and that poor child Louis XVII.... he died in such miserable conditions, that MA from heaven must have been happy that she was reunited with him again!

[elena_maria_vidal]

Well, she certainly was glad to be joining Louis. Remember how she wrote to Mme Elisabeth, "I go now to join your brother...." in her last letter.

I still have not found the quote from Edmund Burke. I'll look for it tonight.

[frohsdorf]

Good evening, everyone---

I discussed the substitution and Hildburghausen story some pages back in this thread.  It is a legend with no basis in fact whatsoever.

Someone brought up the difference in Marie Therese's handwriting.  I own two letters handwritten by her---one written in 1796, the other written in 1823.  Very different styles of writing.  It changed over the years, as happens with many people---myself included.  My handwriting as a teenager doesn't look ANYTHING like my handwriting today, at age 44.

She was not in love with Archduke Karl of Austria.  During her years in Vienna, she met him only a few times.  It was the plan of her cousin, Francis II, to marry them, but Marie Therese refused.  She always remained loyal to the wishes of Louis XVIII (that she marry Angouleme) because she believed this to be the last wishes of her parents.

It is just incredible to me, that the crazy "substitution" story still circulates, although, as I mentioned in a previous entry, the town of Hildburghausen in Germany does keep the tale alive.

[coquelicot]

Hi, Frohsdorf !

I own two letters handwritten by her---one written in 1796, the other written in 1823.  Very different styles of writing.  It changed over the years, as happens with many people---myself included.  My handwriting as a teenager doesn't look ANYTHING like my handwriting today, at age 44.

I agree with you, of course, and experienced the same modifications... fortunately !

Nevertheless, as far as I remember, duchess D'angoulème's scripture seemed to me rougher and more childish than earllier ? Is it an impression ?

I can tell you that substitutions stories still circulate in France, about Marie-Thérèse Charlotte as well as about Louis-Charles ! Concerning him, it's such a rage...  

[Sissi]

  Yes in France story about Marie Therese substitution, some people would love to open Marie Therese´s coffin to make some DNA test. I have read and even talk to people who think that she was raped at some point of her emprisonment and due to that she decided to retire herself from the world.

 

[coquelicot]

Frankly, Sissi, finishing Huerta's book, I didn't know what to believe... But, now, I'm reading Castelot's "Madame Royale", and it seems Huerta relies a lot on Castelot's biography of Marie-Thérèse Charlotte's childhood. For instance, a mistake that amazed me (Valmont for Vermond, queen's obstetrician) in Huerta's book surely comes from Castelot's one.

Mistakes and copying must make readers suspicious, musn't they ?

Furthermore, I found pictures very resembling Marie-Antoinette on this topic. It seems duchess d'Angoulème really looked like her mother ! Same grace and carnation, whatever written descriptions may argue !

I'm still worried about scriptures and behaviour. So many people describe duchess d'Angoulème as a clumpsy person...

You know, I think people need daydreams. They prefer to imagine Charles or Charlotte spending a peaceful life somewhere in space than to face the truth. Itsn't it horrible to admit a little boy was left on is own dying like a dog in a stinking cell ?

Furthermore, french royalists may be attached to these allegued Louis XVII ? There are families directly concerned, and descendance !

[elena_maria_vidal]

Good evening, everyone---

I discussed the substitution and Hildburghausen story some pages back in this thread.  It is a legend with no basis in fact whatsoever.

Someone brought up the difference in Marie Therese's handwriting.  I own two letters handwritten by her---one written in 1796, the other written in 1823.  Very different styles of writing.  It changed over the years, as happens with many people---myself included.  My handwriting as a teenager doesn't look ANYTHING like my handwriting today, at age 44.

She was not in love with Archduke Karl of Austria.  During her years in Vienna, she met him only a few times.  It was the plan of her cousin, Francis II, to marry them, but Marie Therese refused.  She always remained loyal to the wishes of Louis XVIII (that she marry Angouleme) because she believed this to be the last wishes of her parents.

It is just incredible to me, that the crazy "substitution" story still circulates, although, as I mentioned in a previous entry, the town of Hildburghausen in Germany does keep the tale alive.

Welcome back, frohsdorf! I was afraid we had lost you! Thanks for your opininion on this matter!

[elena_maria_vidal]

Frankly, Sissi, finishing Huerta's book, I didn't know what to believe... But, now, I'm reading Castelot's "Madame Royale", and it seems Huerta relies a lot on Castelot's biography of Marie-Thérèse Charlotte's childhood. For instance, a mistake that amazed me (Valmont for Vermond, queen's obstetrician) in Huerta's book surely comes from Castelot's one.

Mistakes and copying must make readers suspicious, musn't they ?

Furthermore, I found pictures very resembling Marie-Antoinette on this topic. It seems duchess d'Angoulème really looked like her mother ! Same grace and carnation, whatever written descriptions may argue !

I'm still worried about scriptures and behaviour. So many people describe duchess d'Angoulème as a clumpsy person...

You know, I think people need daydreams. They prefer to imagine Charles or Charlotte spending a peaceful life somewhere in space than to face the truth. Itsn't it horrible to admit a little boy was left on is own dying like a dog in a stinking cell ?

Furthermore, french royalists may be attached to these allegued Louis XVII ? There are families directly concerned, and descendance !

The mystery of the Dauphin is a very different matter than the far-fetched nonsense about Therese. In those days before DNA, people had no way of knowing for sure what happened to him.  There were many claimants and rumors and occasionally a reliable testimony to stir things up. Even Therese herself was not certain for many years what had happened to her brother, and was still known to be questioning witnessing (discreetly, of course) into the 1820's. Up until the DNA tests, serious scholars have wondered about the truth. (I wrote the reasons for this on the Louis XVII thread if you want to see it.)

[coquelicot]

 It's a rage, on french boards, this question about Louis-Charles ! People immediately have arguments on this subject, it gets passionate ! Moderators finally close the topic... but another is soon back again !

If the "Dark Lady" wasn't Mousseline, have you any idea who she was ? And the reason why her mentor treated her like a princess ? Was she an usurpator, or was it just a coincidence ?

I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm really upset by the whole story... Is it definitely impossible France wanted to keep Louis XVI's daughter ? The only remaining person of this family ?

[elena_maria_vidal]

It's a rage, on french boards, this question about Louis-Charles ! People immediately have arguments on this subject, it gets passionate ! Moderators finally close the topic... but another is soon back again !

If the "Dark Lady" wasn't Mousseline, have you any idea who she was ? And the reason why her mentor treated her like a princess ? Was she an usurpator, or was it just a coincidence ?

I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm really upset by the whole story... Is it definitely impossible France wanted to keep Louis XVI's daughter ? The only remaining person of this family ?

I don't know who she was. I often wonder myself. It could have been a ploy to cast doubt on Marie-Therese and thus undermine the royal regime.

[coquelicot]

thus undermine the royal regime

 

Why ? She had no children of her own. Louis XVI's blood was extincted ? She was nothing left but Louis XVIII's Antigone ?

[elena_maria_vidal]

 

Why ? She had no children of her own. Louis XVI's blood was extincted ? She was nothing left but Louis XVIII's Antigone ?

I mean there were those who wanted to cast aspersion on the governments of Louis XVIII and Charles X by spreading the story that their niece, who gave them so much respectability, was not really a princess.