Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme

[Sissi]

I read that MT was devastaded at Louis Joseph`s death, they got along pretty well, I think she was closer to him than with small Louis Charles, because of the age difference! I know that the first dauphin did not like Madame de Polignac was that the case with MT?
 Something else I have visisted Versailles many times but I can`t seem to find what were her rooms, does any of you know?

[elena_maria_vidal]

Yes, M-T was devastated by L-J's death, as was the entire family (except Provence). I think that Mme de Polignac was more of a Madame la Gouvernante in name only, with Madame de Mackau doing most of the work under the queen's direct supervision. Not that Mme de Polignac was not there because the Dauphin's governess could never leave him alone. I don't think they disliked her, they were just closer to Mme de Mackau, who had also raised Mme Elizabeth.

[coquelicot]

By the way, I came to the conclusion that many lies had been told about Gabrielle de Polignac. The same misadventure occured to her as to the queen: she was decried and traduced by jealous people. Marie-Antoinette had a great affection for her, so great that it envolved her whole family. She helped all the Polignacs the best she could, "loving them with all her heart", she wrote, and considered Gabrielle's children hers by adoption. Many courtiers told Gabrielle was made governess only because of her lazyness, that would allow the queen to raise her children alone ! I on the contrary think they both raised their children together, recreating the warmth of a big family Marie-Antoinette so much missed. Madame Campan, who was close to Marie-Antoinette, appreciated Madame de Polignac, she even liked and respected her as a sweet woman and a devoted friend to the queen. In my view, we may believe her. Gabrielle de Polignac, forced to leave Versailles by anxious Marie-Antoinette, got ill while hearing of the king's execution. She didn't survive on Antoinette's one. She died on December 9th, 1793, was buried in Vienna with the epitaph "died from sorrow".
Nowadays, her sad reputation seems immovable. Historians, repeating words of their predecessors from generation to generation, have done their works ! But I persit on prefering to follow Marie-Antoinette, who wrote to her "dear heart" she would only find peace when the purity of Gabrielle's heart will be recognized.

[elena_maria_vidal]

Yes, coquelicot, I am coming to a similar conclusion. Mme. de Polignac was terribly maligned in some of the same ways as the queen. Whereas, in reality, Gabrielle was known for her simplicity of dress and the fact that she never wore diamonds. Marie-Antoinette loved her like a sister. I think your assessment is accurate.

[coquelicot]

That's it ! But from Zweig to Lever, all the biographers of Marie-Antoinette decrie this devoted friend she loved like a sister. Even Elisabeth de Faydeau, who wrote this so beautiful book about Fargeon, Marie-Antoinette's perfumer, is in this tradition. And look at this awful manga !  
There are so few sources about Gabrielle de Polignac... and most of them full of anger. It seems Antoinette's wish will never be exauced !  :-/
It's one more reason why I appreciate Fraser's work : her opinion about duchess de Polignac is more balanced. For instance, she doesn't forget to mention how close she was to the king, too... among the few ones he trusted !

[elena_maria_vidal]

That is true! Louis trusted Gabrielle and encouraged Antoinette to be friends with her.

[Sissi]

I used to have a negative opinion of Polignac, books always seemed to portray her as an intrigant always begging for money and advantages for her relatives. However I have changed my mind, she was not such a bad woman after all, both of you are right she was calumnized as MA was.

  I know Louis XVI favoured that friendship, because he thought it was less dangerous than the one with Madame de Lamballe and her Orleans entourage, however, even if Madame de Polignac was a good person, she was surrounded by opportunists, who took advantage of her intimacy with the queen. I think that as a friend you have to watch over your friends interest and their good names, Polignac knew that MA was unloved, it was a secret to no one.... I think that as a friend she should have maintain the demand for her relatives a little more frugal....

[coquelicot]

Of course, dear Sissi ! But that's not so easy ! I think they both were too nice and generous, her and Antoinette, and they both were manipulated by people who took advantage of their sentimentality. Antoinette was manipulated by her austrian family, and Gabrielle by her greedy relatives. It can be so difficult to answer no !

[Sissi]

you are right!! It is so very difficult to say know to people you love!!!!

 Changing the subject I have read that the first dauphin got Tuberculosis from Madame Poitrine it is sad that queens did not have the customs to breast feed their babies, It could have save the poor child, because MA had a robust health before the revolution.

[elena_maria_vidal]

That is so true because M-A had originally wanted to nurse Madame Royale but I think her mother talked her out of it.

[coquelicot]

Didn't she even begin to nurse her ? But it wasn't in the habits of the court of France, so, she dropped it. Sissi, you think Louis-Joseph got tuberculosis from Madame Poitrine ? Is it possible ? Wasn't bone tuberculosis a familial disease among Bourbons ? Louis-Auguste got it as a child, but was cured at Meudon.

[Sissi]

Didn't she even begin to nurse her ? But it wasn't in the habits of the court of France, so, she dropped it. Sissi, you think Louis-Joseph got tuberculosis from Madame Poitrine ? Is it possible ? Wasn't bone tuberculosis a familial disease among Bourbons ? Louis-Auguste got it as a child, but was cured at Meudon.

  Dear coquelicot, I have read that Madame Poitrine was the one who pass the disease to Louis Joseph! I know tha Bery was sick in his youth but I did not know that it was tuberculosis.

[bell_the_cat]

   Dear coquelicot, I have read that Madame Poitrine was the one who pass the disease to Louis Joseph! I know tha Bery was sick in his youth but I did not know that it was tuberculosis.

I believe L-J also suffered from rickets, which is caused by a vitamin deficiency - i.e. poor diet. May be wrong though!

[coquelicot]

I'm pretty sure Louis-Auguste suffered from the same disease as his sons. The fresh air of Meudon was reputed to have cured him. That's why poor Joseph was sent there too.
Later, Charles got this horrible disease in captivity, too.
That's the reason why I believe it was a familial problem.

[elena_maria_vidal]

TB of the bone indeed ran in the family (or perhaps the germ just lived in the palace, which would not be surprising.) I never heard of Louis-Joseph having rickets, but Charles certainly did, while in the Temple prison.