Author Topic: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme  (Read 132073 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

palatine

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2005, 03:09:01 PM »
I've read that the Habsburgs tried their best to limit Marie-Therese's contact with any of the French exiles in Vienna, not just Fersen.  As I recall, the Habsburgs had plans of their own for Marie-Therese, and were considering marrying her to the Archduke Charles.  The Habsburg plans came to nothing, and Marie-Therese was finally allowed to join her uncle Louis XVIII, who she followed from Russia to England during the Bourbon Interregnum, refusing to abandon him and seek a more secure refuge in Vienna, where he was unwelcome.

I believe Marie-Therese refused to attend the funeral of her parents that Louis XVIII held.  Apparently, Marie-Therese had serious doubts that the right bodies had been found.  

Marie-Therese was tormented for most of her life by men claiming to be her brother, Louis XVII.  Marie-Therese quietly investigated the more serious claimants, sending out courtiers with a list of questions that she had drawn up.  I doubt Marie-Therese had much hope, but she continued to investigate.  She never recognized any of the claimants as her brother, though some people criticized her for not doing so, and felt that she was just out for power for herself.  After the Bourbon Restoration, Marie-Therese was recognized as the Dauphine; her detractors claimed that she was too eager to become a Queen to recognize her brother and take a subordinate place.

elena_maria_vidal

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2005, 04:31:16 PM »
Quote
I've read that the Habsburgs tried their best to limit Marie-Therese's contact with any of the French exiles in Vienna, not just Fersen.  As I recall, the Habsburgs had plans of their own for Marie-Therese, and were considering marrying her to the Archduke Charles.  The Habsburg plans came to nothing, and Marie-Therese was finally allowed to join her uncle Louis XVIII, who she followed from Russia to England during the Bourbon Interregnum, refusing to abandon him and seek a more secure refuge in Vienna, where he was unwelcome.

I believe Marie-Therese refused to attend the funeral of her parents that Louis XVIII held.  Apparently, Marie-Therese had serious doubts that the right bodies had been found.  

Marie-Therese was tormented for most of her life by men claiming to be her brother, Louis XVII.  Marie-Therese quietly investigated the more serious claimants, sending out courtiers with a list of questions that she had drawn up.  I doubt Marie-Therese had much hope, but she continued to investigate.  She never recognized any of the claimants as her brother, though some people criticized her for not doing so, and felt that she was just out for power for herself.  After the Bourbon Restoration, Marie-Therese was recognized as the Dauphine; her detractors claimed that she was too eager to become a Queen to recognize her brother and take a subordinate place.


Yes. Marie-Therese, while in Vienna, came very close to being betrothed to her cousin Archduke Karl, brother of Emperor Francis. The plans came to nothing, and the princess joined her uncle Louis XVIII (in Courland/ Latvia), who enticed her into marrying her pathetic cousin Angouleme by writing love letters in his name. They were married in 1799 and eventually migrated to England, to the above mentioned Hartwell House, after first renting a smaller residence.  The unhappiness of her marriage is well known. They returned to France in 1814.

Marie-Therese was indeed not present at the funeral of her parents. (BTW there are some great photos of the Chapelle Expiatoire on the Princess de Lamballe thread! :)) She spent the day of Jan 21 1815 secluded in her private oratory at the Tuileries, the same oratory that had been Mme Elisabeth's. It was a custom for daughters not to attend the funeral of a parent, although in the case of M-T it may also have been too traumatic; she did not do well in large Parisian crowds. There were rumors that the bodies were not really those of the King and Queen, although Chateaubriand in his "Memoires d'Outre-Tombe" insists that he recognized Marie-Antoinette's jaw from when she once smiled at him at Versailles. However, Marie-Therese later visited  their sepulchres at St Denis, so I do not know how much credence she gave to the rumors.

Marie-Therese felt it was her sacred duty to discover the truth of her brother Louis XVii's fate, and discreetly followed up on any leads. No, she did not give her official recognition to any of the claimants. Once in the spring of 1817, while walking in the gardens of Versailles with her brother-in-law Berry, a shabby young man approached the princess with his hand out, saying, "Sister!" Marie-Therese's reaction shocked Berry and the entourage. She shouted at the young man: "Go AWAY! Go AWAY! It is YOU who destroyed my family!" The stranger ran away into the park and disappeared, leaving his "sister" quite agitated.  This illustrates the inner torment she experienced in matters relating to her brother. (I also posted this anecdote on the Louis XVII thread. It is from Meade Minnergerode's book on the Dauphin, I believe.) IMO, it goes back to some of the ugly things that happened in the Temple prison in 1793.

I think she was concerned, if her brother was alive and found, that he would be incapable of governing France after the horrors perpetrated upon him in the Temple. She backed off on her searching a bit after 1820, not because of her husband but because of her beloved nephew, Henri, Duc de Bordeaux and Comte de Chambord, whom she loved like a son. She really wanted Henri to inherit the throne and no one can blame her; he was a beautiful, intelligent boy and would have made a good ruler. Nevertheless, as late as 1827, when her father-in-law had become King Charles X and she herself was Madame la Dauphine, she was still following up on leads about the fate of her brother, such as when she had the confrontation with Nicole Hervagault, who was said to possess information.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2005, 05:09:01 PM »
Just a theory - perhaps by saying 'you destroyed my family' to the 'Dauphin' Marie-Therese was referring to the young Dauphin's accusations (that he was forced to make) against Marie Anotinette and Mdme Elisabeth, whom he said sexually abused him.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

elena_maria_vidal

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2005, 05:10:47 PM »
Quote
Just a theory - perhaps by saying 'you destroyed my family' to the 'Dauphin' Marie-Therese was referring to the young Dauphin's accusations (that he was forced to make) against Marie Anotinette and Mdme Elisabeth, whom he said sexually abused him.



That is exactly what I think...she had some major unresolved issues with the terrible things that happened to them there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

palatine

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2005, 08:00:42 AM »
It is possible that Marie-Therese believed that her brother's accusations of incest triggered Marie-Antoinette's trial and execution.    

The Temple prison became something of a tourist attraction after Marie-Therese was sent to Vienna.  After Napoleon came to power, he had it torn down so that it would not become a shrine to the royal family.  When Marie-Therese returned to France after Napoleon's fall, she built a chapel on the site where the Temple had once stood, to expiate the evil that happened there.  Unfortunately, neither the chapel nor anything else ever brought her real peace.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline Eddie_uk

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2005, 07:29:04 AM »
I agree. It is a shame but I think she never felt the same way about her brother after the abuse allegations and I think she knew deep down he had died but maybe she hoped that just one member of her immediate family was still alive?

It was a pretty awful life I think. Spending her formative years in prison and being separated one by one from her family. She lost everything pretty much apart from her mothers and aunts jewels, and what good is that!

Very sad and very barbaric treatment for someone so young.
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline frohsdorf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2006, 11:29:10 PM »
If you examine original documents, original books published in French, and speak with descendents of Charles X (through the Bourbon Parma line), you'll have a clear picture of Marie Therese Charlotte, duchesse d'Angouleme.   Her husband/cousin was impotent, the marriage was unconsumated (which she tried to disguise by forbidding an autopsy of her body--this was expressly written down in her testament of July, 1851).   She was troubled by doubts about her brother's fate all of her life. Although thought by many to be abrupt and cold, among her friends and loyal adherents of the Bourbons, she was known to be kind and gracious.  By all accounts she was very decisive and possessed her mother's strength of character (and, like her mother, was an accomplished horsewoman).  Napoleon declared, "She's  the only man in the family!" after hearing of her heroic stance at Bordeaux in 1815.  She was devoted to her neice and nephew, who became the Comte de Chambord and the Duchesse de Parme.  Chambord was her universal heir, inheriting her fortune in 1851.   She died at Frohsdorf in Austria.   This property was left to the Comtesse de Chambord, who also inherited a portion of Marie Antoinette's jewels.  Frohsdorf remained in the Bourbon family until 1941.  Marie Therese is interred in the crypt of Castagnavizz, just outside Gorizia, Italy, with five other members of the Bourbon dynasty.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frohsdorf »

elena_maria_vidal

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2006, 07:52:07 AM »
A great summary, Frohsdorf!! Have you ever been to Frohsdorf?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

Offline Eddie_uk

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2006, 10:29:24 AM »
I was wondering if their are any photographs of Marie Therese?  :)

As the first photo of Queen Victoria is from 1844!! and Marie Therese didn't die until 1851!
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline frohsdorf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2006, 11:37:40 AM »
Yes, I have visited Frohsdorf, Brunnsee, Gorizia, etc, many times.  For many years I kept up a correspondence with Comtesse Blanca de Wurmbrand-Stuppach (1906-1999), the youngest daughter of Princesse Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo, who sold Frohsdorf in 1941.  I also visited her in her later years.   That entire story (the sale of Frohsdorf, the dispersion, sale, and destruction of the Bourbon collection at Frohsdorf) is a very sad tale.   I, too, often wondered if Marie Therese Charlotte had ever been photographed.  Madame de Wurmbrand-Stuppach told me a photo never existed at Frohsdorf.  There were many portrait miniatures on ivory, but no photographs.

elena_maria_vidal

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2006, 01:05:50 PM »
Frohsdorf, I would love to hear more about your visits to Frohsdorf and Gorizia, etc, and the tragic sale of the Bourbon collection at Frohsdorf. What a shame! I always heard that the Comte de Chambord had a magnificent library! What do you think about the legend of the "Dark Countess?"

Offline frohsdorf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2006, 08:27:51 PM »
The "Dark Countess" story of Hildburghausen is a legend with no basis in fact.  The town, however, does keep the tale alive---there are booklets, etc, one can purchase in the small  museum there.  The lady's grave can still be seen on  a hillside outside of town. I visited Hildburghausen about two or three years ago.  

According to the legend, Marie Therese was substituted for another girl upon her release from the Temple Tower in December, 1795.  Well, Fersen saw and spoke with her in Vienna in 1796, carefully noting his impressions in his journal.  He recognized her as the girl he last saw in 1791.  Later, when she joined her uncle in Mittau in 1799, Louis XVIII wrote a private letter to the Comte d'Artois, in which he stated, "She so perfectly recalls both her mother and her father...."  Then in 1814, upon returning to France, she met again Pauline de Tourzel, Comtesse de Bearn, daughter of her old governess, and exclaimed, "Oh, it's Pauline!"---an imposter probably wouldn't have recognized Marie Therese's old childhood friend.  Finally, one need only examine the portraits at Versailles by Baron Gros and other artists---she most definitely resembles both Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette.  Also, keep in mind, that her cousin, Francis II, would NEVER have turned over to an imposter the money and jewels smuggled out of the country by the King and Queen of France in 1791.

The Hildburghausen mystery is interesting.  But the "Dark Countess" definitely was not Marie Therese Charlotte de France.

As for Frohsdorf and its contents----

Prince Don Jaime de Bourbon (1870-1931), Duc de Madrid,  inherited the entire estate and the contents of the chateau upon the death of the Comtesse de Chambord in 1886.  He took up residence there in 1909, upon his father's death---which made him the Head of the Royal House of Bourbon.   He was not especially wealthy, so maintaining the vast building, the grounds,  the royal collections, etc, was often difficult.  One of the first things he sold was the magnificent silver service of Charles X, as well as the adjoining property of Katzelsdorf.

Many items were stolen during World War I.  When Don Jaime died in 1931, he left Frohsdorf and the remaining collection to his sister, Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo.  Almost immediately, another sister, Archduchess Blanca of Austria, brought suit in court for what she believed to be her share of the estate.  After much needless expense, the property of Pitten was turned over to Blanca (Katzelsdorf, Frohsdorf, and Pitten all belonged to the Duchesse d'Angouleme, then the Comtesse de Chambord, etc).  The library of the Comte de Chambord was removed from Frohsdorf in 1935 and sold by Maggs Brothers of London.  Then, in 1937 at Sothebys in London, Marie Antoinette's magnificent diamond necklace was sold by the two sisters.  Finally, in 1938 (also at Sothebys in London), the art and paintings were removed from Frohsdorf and sold by Princess de Bourbon-Massimo.  The sale was a disaster, with extremely low prices realized.  Also, many items held back for exhibition only were completely destroyed when the Germans bombed London.

Princess Massimo and her daughters remained at Frohsdorf through Hitler's Anschluss, but they saw the writing on the wall and finally sold the entire property to the German Reichpost in April, 1941.  What remained (and it wasn't much) was smuggled to Italy and Vienna.  When WWII ended, they returned to Frohsdorf (part of the grounds and a few outbuildings still remained in the Princess' possession).  Unfortunately, Austria came under foreign occupation and Frohsdorf was in the Russian zone.  Russian soldiers plundered Frohsdorf and many remaining Bourbon possessions were burned in the courtyard of the chateau, including the large crucifix of the Duchesse d'Angouleme and portraits of the Comte and Comtesse de Chambord.   The family then left Austria for Italy.  When Princess Massimo died in 1961, her youngest daughter, Countess Blanca de Wurmbrand-Stuppach, took up residence in a large house that was once part of the Frohsdorf estate.  She died there in 1999.  Princess Massimo had three other daughters.   These four girls inherited what remained of the French Royal collection.  Very little escaped both World Wars and the Russian occupation in 1945.  And, of course, there were the sales at Sothebys, as well.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frohsdorf »

elena_maria_vidal

  • Guest
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2006, 06:46:39 PM »
Thank you, Frohsdorf, for your utterly fascinating account! Oh, I wish I could have talked to you about eight years ago!!

I agree with you about the Dark Countess story.

Offline frohsdorf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2006, 11:00:15 PM »
Yes, the story of Frohsdorf is fascinating and very tragic.  What a magnificent museum it would have made today!  I visited Comtesse Blanca Wurmbrand-Stuppach on a few occasions and corresponded with her for years.  I got to know her when she already an elderly lady, but she was very  lively and intelligent.  Even in her later years she was contacted by people claiming to be descendents of Louis XVII---in fact, believing that I was another one, she at first was reluctant to meet me.  She also held a deep aversion to the Orleans family.  

Offline Eddie_uk

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
    • View Profile
Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2006, 07:34:49 AM »
Thank you so much  :) What an interesting and amazing story!! If only in was a museum now with all those lovely things relating to the Bourbons. It's sad to think they were all divided up and went back out into the world!!!
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.