Author Topic: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme  (Read 119711 times)

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Offline Sissi

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #315 on: March 20, 2006, 08:55:08 AM »
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Maybe she had disclosed what had really happened to her brother in the Temple?  I recall reading somewhere that upon her death, Marie-Therese had left a sealed document titled, "The Fate of Louis XVII".  In accordance with her instructions this document was to remain sealed and not to be opened for 150 years.  If this document exists, it should have been opened in 2002 yet I have heard nothing further about it.  


Dear Alexander II I have read that too somewhere, I recall that the document was suposelly in the Vatican.

Offline Sissi

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #316 on: March 20, 2006, 09:38:25 AM »
However regarding the secret she was blackmailed with,  seemed to have been "her " secret"  something directly affecting her. According to the letters it was a secret capable of destroying her flawless reputation!Some people think that it might be a proof of the substitution!

  I don`t think Louis XVII urvived the Temple, however in his case a substitution might have proven beneficial hi was the heir to the throne! many people would have benefit from his substitution. However in the case of Marie Therese I see no point in substituting another woman! She was no heir, and therefore had no political importance, it is true that she was used as a propaganda tool but she was not as important as her brother was. So in my opinion there was no reason to substitute her, unless she expressed the desire herself.

  In the case, that she might have said "yes I want to live a quiet life, apart from politics and media!" it is still hard to believe that such a princess would say that! She was proud of being who she was, of her rank, I do not believe that Marie Therese would have accept to live apart from what she thought was her destiny.
She had lived with her mother and aunt who displayed great courage, she wouldn`t have agree to live a commoner life when she was the daughter of her parents.

   So if you ask my opinion "the secret" has to be something else!
  Some people think it might have been a rape! There is no proof but still nobody really knows what might have happened in those walls, she was left alone, she had no servant, she was a young woman, atractive, her parents had been hated. The truth is that anything could have happen!

Offline Alexander_II

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #317 on: March 21, 2006, 01:42:31 AM »
I think we all agree that the substitution theory is absurd however, it is highly possible that she was raped if we confine the secret specifically to Marie-Therese.  Whilst disparaging for a Princesse Royale, it would of been very difficult for either Madame de Soucy or Dr Lavergne to allege unless the rape eventuated into a pregnancy and the childs identity could of been destructively exposed.

Again what if Louis XVII had survived the Temple but was either physically or psychologically affected to such a degree as to render him a threat to the cause of the very ambitious Bourbon's?  Now such a secret is worth paying for because it does affect many of the key players.  This purely speculative scenario of events would of course explain why the family very expediently dismissed all pretenders without any real curiosity or interest.  Even Anna Anderson received more attention from the Romanov's and let's face it, she had even less to gain!

If this document exists, it could very well be the key because as history has it Marie-Therese's brothers fate did directly affect her.  It was Louis XVIII who desired and pushed his eager niece into marrying Louis-Antoine, Duc d'Angouleme, despite the initial opposition to the match by his brother Charles, guarantying Marie-Therese in his mind the throne of France.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alexander_II »

Offline frohsdorf

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #318 on: May 29, 2006, 11:45:24 PM »
It's true that Marie Therese may have paid "hush money" to certain individuals in her later years (as Andre Castelot suggests in his biography of the Princess).   This may or may not have pertained to Louis XVII, as Marie Therese was never entirely sure what became of her brother.  Although she designated the Comte de Chambord her heir in her handwritten last will and testament (July 1851), for many years she was troubled by persistent doubts about the fate of Louis XVII.  However, there never was any kind of sealed document, or a second will.  This was a rumor that was passed down through the years.  The daughters of Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo (the last Bourbon owner of Frohsdorf), made a formal inquiry,  visited the Vatican, and met with papal officials to determine whether or not Marie Therese sent any documention to the Pope prior to her death in 1851.  The official statement of the Vatican was that no such documentation ever existed in the papal archives.

Offline Sissi

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #319 on: May 30, 2006, 09:20:24 AM »
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It's true that Marie Therese may have paid "hush money" to certain individuals in her later years (as Andre Castelot suggests in his biography of the Princess).   This may or may not have pertained to Louis XVII, as Marie Therese was never entirely sure what became of her brother.  Although she designated the Comte de Chambord her heir in her handwritten last will and testament (July 1851), for many years she was troubled by persistent doubts about the fate of Louis XVII.  However, there never was any kind of sealed document, or a second will.  This was a rumor that was passed down through the years.  The daughters of Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo (the last Bourbon owner of Frohsdorf), made a formal inquiry,  visited the Vatican, and met with papal officials to determine whether or not Marie Therese sent any documention to the Pope prior to her death in 1851.  The official statement of the Vatican was that no such documentation ever existed in the papal archives.

  Really!!! I heard that a document might have been placed there for custody!! in nay case some historians believe that the black mailed was somehting about her! I don`t think there was a substitution, I know, she changed but after the traumatic event she went through, it is kind of normal, it would have been abnormal if she had not changed, her gloominess was the product of her emprisonment, the death of her close relatives. I am not really a supporter of the substitution theory, i don`t think there is enough sustainable evidence, even though I would love to think that she did hide, and was happy!!!

 However, some historians beleives that she was raped, and became pregnant!

 I thought aboutthat possibility, she was a young pretty girl, aurrounded by hateful men, a raped princess was grave for Louis XVIII ambitions, he needed her for propaganda, to give legitimacy to his claim, she was to important for him to let her go that easily, the solution might have been an abortion, which at the time might have rendered her sterile. This is only speculation!!!!! ::)

Offline frohsdorf

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #320 on: June 06, 2006, 08:14:14 PM »
The original handwriten, signed, and dated (July 1851) last will and testament of Marie Therese Charlotte is in the Archives Nationales in Paris.  She does not mention her brother, Louis XVII, and designates the Comte de Chambord her universal heir.  I own a photocopy of the original document, that I acquired through the Archives Nationales.

There was no secret, no rape, and no substitution.

Offline Alexander_II

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #321 on: June 14, 2006, 06:29:33 AM »
Dear frohsdorf, you may have acquired a public copy of the last will and testament of Marie-Therese but it is very naive of you to suggest this document concludes that there was no secret.  By your own admission, you validate that, "Marie-Therese may have paid hush money to certain individuals in her later years".  How does her last will and testatment sustantiate this possible bribery, blackmail or for that matter formally deny any merit towards the suggestion that she was potentially sexually abused during the term of her imprisonment?  The evidence strongly suggests that there was a secret.  We can only speculate as to its very nature but it was obviously important enough for Marie-Therese to want it to remain so!

Furthermore, the daughters of Princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Massimo may well have partaken in a pilgrammage to the Vatican but it is a well known fact that documents in the Vatican Secret Archives (Archivio Segreto Vaticano), or the even more larger secret Apostolic Penitentiary Archives are never made public due to the privacy of the confessor-penitent nature of the Penitentiary.  Therefore, if Marie-Therese did place a sealed document with the Vatican, officials were under no obligation whatsoever to confirm the truth of the matter to these ladies and in all reality would have been instructed to deny its very existance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alexander_II »

Offline Sissi

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #322 on: June 14, 2006, 08:13:05 AM »
I agree with you Alexander II, we can only speculate about what she was black mailed with, but the truth is that there was something she did not want anybody to know about. There was something secret!!! What is that secret? nobody knows for sure. Marie Therese was a serious woman, she would have not paid one cent if it would have not been a serious thing!
Besides you do not black mailed the king`s niece or daughter in law just like that, without serious motives.
   The Vatican is known for its fantastic and secret archives, they will not reveal what they contain that easily.

Offline frohsdorf

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #323 on: June 24, 2006, 07:30:20 PM »
None of the memoirs of the period, nor any of the serious biographies of Marie Therese Charlotte support a rape in the Temple Tower.  Nor do any documents exist in the French National Archives to support this.  But feel free to gossip about it.

At the time of her death, Marie Therese must have felt certain that her brother was dead, or had died in the Temple Tower in 1795.   She would not have named the Comte de Chambord her heir, otherwise.  Her brother, as the legitimate King of France, would have been named in her will, especially since her money and jewels would also have belonged to him, since it was all that remained of the fortune smuggled out of France by Marie Antoinette in 1791.

She very character, serious and pious,  would not allow her to keep her brother's existance a secret if he, indeed, still lived.

In all likelihood, she paid "hush money" to certain individuals to keep the rumors and imposters quiet.   Naundorff, as you know, hounded her until his death.

The "secret document" in the Vatican is a myth and is a good example of the rumors and outright lies that can gain credibility as "historical fact" over the years.

I would like to know the source, a reliable cited source, with a referral to documentation that I can look at to support  this supposition and rumor that Marie Therese sent a secret document pertaining to the Fate of Louis XVII to the  Vatican.   Not just , "Oh, I heard....."

I have studied Marie Therese's life for many years, have examined original letters and documents in both the French and Austrian national archives, and have also interviewed members of the Bourbon family.  I know what I'm talking about----as others on this site do not.    

Offline frohsdorf

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #324 on: June 24, 2006, 11:20:29 PM »
I meant to say "HER very character...."  not "SHE very character...."  

The possibility of a  "secret document" or second will is mentioned in passing in Roger Langeron's (or perhaps Joan Evan's---one or the other, I don't have my papers with me at the moment)  very superficial biography of the Princess.  He does not  back this up with anything and does not provide a source or documentation to support this.

It's this kind of careless statement that creates problems for both the casual reader of French history and the serious researcher.

Based on what I've seen and read, any money Marie Therese paid out was to keep the tittle-tattle and gossips quiet!  Didn't work too well, obviously, as people are STILL gossiping about it over 150 years later.


Offline Nathalie

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #325 on: June 25, 2006, 06:41:12 AM »
None of the memoirs of the period, nor any of the serious biographies of Marie Therese Charlotte support a rape in the Temple Tower.  Nor do any documents exist in the French National Archives to support this.  But feel free to gossip about it.

I don't know, but unfortunately it seems quite realistic. Even nowadays there are many sexual abuse all over the world.
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Offline frohsdorf

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #326 on: June 25, 2006, 10:00:07 AM »
My contributions to this subject, the great Marie Therese Charlotte secret and Louis XVII conspiracy,  are over.  

Offline pouvoir aux canards

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #327 on: July 28, 2006, 04:05:56 PM »
I have studied Marie Therese's life for many years, have examined original letters and documents in both the French and Austrian national archives, and have also interviewed members of the Bourbon family.  I know what I'm talking about----as others on this site do not.    (FROHSDORF)

I try to study the life of Louise Marie d'Artois, daughter of Duc et Duchesse de Berry (ou Berri) . His life in France, Scotland, Prague, etc.... After his wedding with Carlo III I have some informations. If there were one or several book(s) in French or Italian (or Portuguese, English, Spanish) I would be happy to read them.

Best Regards

P.S. your opinions about Duchesse d' Angoulème seemed to me very wise...




« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 04:15:06 PM by pouvoir aux canards »

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #328 on: August 07, 2006, 05:58:28 AM »
My contributions to this subject, the great Marie Therese Charlotte secret and Louis XVII conspiracy,  are over.  

Oh relax will you? It's a discussion board!!
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Offline Duke of New Jersey

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #329 on: July 08, 2008, 02:22:20 PM »
I know that this thread has not been used in a while but I had a question:

What was Marie-Therese's realtionship with her maternal first cousin, Maria Amalia of Naples and Sicily, Duchess d'Orleans and Queen of the French? What were Marie-Therese's feelings about Maria Amalia becoming Queen of the French? Did she consider her a traitor or just a woman following her husband's wishes? And what did Marie-Therese feel at Maria Amalia's flight from France in the Revolutions of 1848, did the the two cousins ever write to each other after 1848?

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