Author Topic: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress  (Read 38918 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2005, 10:30:30 PM »
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 The Russian word is "pakazuxa".  Belochka, Hikaru, translate please for me.


Pokazuha best translates as "to show off".


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2005, 10:32:33 PM »
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what is Krepost?


Krepost' = Fortress


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David_Pritchard

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2005, 11:02:36 PM »
Krepost means fortress. The Saints Peter and Paul Fortress is called the Petropavlavskoi Krepost in Russian.  In Russian the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral is called the Petropavlavskom Sabor. (Please correct me if the case endings are not correct)

It seems to me that we have a number of incidents of imperial corpses being looted, desecrated, transfered, and examined.

1917/18 Uspensky Cathedral, Moscow - crowd of unruly peasants/workers loot and desecrate the tombs of the Rurikid dynasty.

1917/18 SS Peter and Paul Cathedral, Saint Petersburg - Bolshevik committee loot the graves in both the Cathedral and the adjoining Grand Ducal Vault.

1930's SS Peter and Paul Cathedral, Saint Petersburg Transfer of the body of Grand Duchess Alexandra Georgievna to Greece.

1953 Uspensky Cathedral, Moscow - Tsar Ivan IV disintered and examined.

1994 SS Peter and Paul Cathedral, Saint Petersburg - body of Grand Duke Georgii Aleksandrovich disintered and examined.

I believe that there was also some disruption regarding the body of Prince Saint Aleksander Nevsky at the Aleksander Nevsky Lavra. I have a strong feeling that there are more incidents to add to the list.

David
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by David_Pritchard »

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2005, 11:32:00 PM »
Quote
Krepost means fortress. The Saints Peter and Paul Fortress is called the Petropavlavskoi Krepost in Russian.  In Russian the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral is called the Petropavlavskom Sabor. (Please correct me if the case endings are not correct)

It seems to me that we have a number of incidents of imperial corpses being looted, desecrated, transfered, and examined.

1917/18 Uspensky Cathedral, Moscow - crowd of unruly peasants/workers loot and desecrate the tombs of the Rurikid dynasty.

1917/18 SS Peter and Paul Cathedral, Saint Petersburg - Bolshevik committee loot the graves in both the Cathedral and the adjoining Grand Ducal Vault.

1930's SS Peter and Paul Cathedral, Saint Petersburg Transfer of the body of Grand Duchess Alexandra Georgievna to Greece.

Late 1940's Uspensky Cathedral, Moscow - Tsar Ivan IV disintered and examined.

1994 SS Peter and Paul Cathedral, Saint Petersburg - body of Grand Duke Georgii Aleksandrovich disintered and examined.

I believe that there was also some disruption regarding the body of Prince Saint Aleksander Nevsky at the Aleksander Nevsky Lavra. I have a strong feeling that there are more incidents to add to the list.

David


David,

Again, thank you for this very detailed list.  Yes, you are correct.  There are many items to report on this ghoulish subject.

1.  The looting and destruction of all of the graves of the Moscow High Nobility in the period 1919-1929 in the Donskoy Monastery in Moscow.  These graves were never restored and the tombstones were just scattered hither-and-dither.  Again, per Belochka's comments above, the same.  This was done under direct orders from Dherzhinsky with Beria's kind assistance.

2.  The opening and looting of the graves of the Moscow High Nobility in the period 1925-1929 in the Novoe Diveechy Monastery.  The graves were restored to a vague sense of order after the War.  It was awful.

I will refrain from any political comments here.

Thank you again for your accurate compilation.


With all of the best regards from Shanghai,


A.A.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

David_Pritchard

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2005, 12:00:48 AM »
In the looting of the Novodevichy Cemetary, did this act include the tomb of Denis Vasilievich Davidov? If so, just how low can one go in looting the grave of a poet and national war hero who pursued, harassed and battled la Grand Armée Napoléonienne all the way the western border of the empire?

David

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2005, 12:49:07 AM »
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In the looting of the Novodevichy Cemetary, did this act include the tomb of Denis Vasilievich Davidov? If so, just how low can one go in looting the grave of a poet and national war hero who pursued, harassed and battled la Grand Armée Napoléonienne all the way the western border of the empire?

David


Dear David,

Here I do not have an answer for you.  I will check with my friends in the Church in Moscow that is responsible for the Cemetery.  Please allow me a few days.

I agree with what you say.  But if there was a period in time that was out of control, it surely was 1917-1939.  Horrible.

With all of the best,

A.A.

Finelly

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2005, 01:23:15 AM »
Davidov's grave was left intact.

Finelly

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2005, 01:36:21 AM »
<sigh>

I base my statement on two sources:

First, I am acquainted with the editor of the memoirs of Davidov and have had numerous conversations with him, the last one one in 2004..  Sometime that year, my father and I had dinner with him and he described his visit to the gravesite.  The topic of desecration came up then.  The grave was not touched.

Second, I have a friend who is a nun at a nearby convent.  I received from her confirmation that the grave was not touched.

This is getting silly.  I am not naming names or email addresses because it doesn't matter anyway.  Posters get cross-examined and subjected to the most bizarre forms of questioning I have ever seen in my life.  

Accept it or not.  I simply have answered the question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Finelly »

David_Pritchard

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2005, 02:57:10 AM »
Quote
<sigh>

I base my statement on two sources:

First, I am acquainted with the editor of the memoirs of Davidov and have had numerous conversations with him, the last one one in 2004..  Sometime that year, my father and I had dinner with him and he described his visit to the gravesite.  The topic of desecration came up then.  The grave was not touched.

Second, I have a friend who is a nun at a nearby convent.  I received from her confirmation that the grave was not touched.

This is getting silly.  I am not naming names or email addresses because it doesn't matter anyway.  Posters get cross-examined and subjected to the most bizarre forms of questioning I have ever seen in my life.  

Accept it or not.  I simply have answered the question.


Dear Finelly,

Thank you for your response it is much appreciated. I have learned to take your comments as fact, no reference sources needed.

I have visited the Davidov above ground sarchophgus many times in the cemetery and it appears to be in relatively good condition for its age. I was just curious if it had been opened and pilfered. If you remember there is a church very close to his tomb. On the far side of this church away from the Davidov tomb, I noticed a few flat marble slabs marking the graves of a princely couple descended from the Rurikids. There were not a lot of markers on that side of the church, something told me that there had been many grave markers there at one time and that only those that could be mowed over were not removed. Maybe the Communists removed the headstones of the nobilty for construction materials just as the Nazis did with the headstones of the Jews. Do you know anything about this?

David

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by David_Pritchard »

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2005, 03:14:48 AM »
Quote

Maybe the Communists removed the headstones of the nobilty for construction materials just as the Nazis did with the headstones of the Jews. Do you know anything about this?

David



David,

The vandalized and desecrated headstones, according to articles published over the years in Rucckaya Miccl, went into various places.  Some were used to fortify the embankments of the river that runs through Moscow under the guide of flood control; others, together with the ruins of Christ the Saviour Cathedral, and many of the demolished churches, were used in the interiors of the Moscow subway system as it was being built.  Others were simply trashed.  Those in the Donskoy cemetery were used in the subway, except for those that the remaining clery at the time was able to either retrieve, save or conceal.  Additionally, in the Donskoy cemetery behind the main cathedral are these headstones where they have been set to rest again.  Behind these headstones are remains of the frescos of the inside walls of Christ the Saviour Cathedral, blown up by the Godless hordes.

It was intended to turn both the Novodivechy Cemetery and Donskoy Cemetery into people's parks.  It almost succeeded, almost, almost, and had the Second World War not intervened, and had the Godless government not needed the help of the Church, it would have.

Additionally, as the monks at Donskoy Cemetery became aware of what was happening, they removed and quietly reburied in a very hidden spot the body of Patriarch Tikhon, now St. Patriach Tikhon of Moscow.  This act saved the body from destruction and loss and it is now available for veneration by the Christian faithful in the main cathedral at the Monastery.

And as I am sure that you are aware, the Novodiveechy Monastery became a very stylish place for the Politburo to bury its dead in the 1960s and 1970s.  Therein lies Nikita Kruschev, in hallowed ground, a man who almost annihilated the Church in 1956.

I hope that this answers your question.

rosebud

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2005, 03:23:24 AM »
Wasnt this all about something which is not read from published books? About something most of us have not even heard before? Something, which is known (so it seems) only in certain circles and even there mostly by word of mouths?

It is very interesting though. Do you know why they did it when they did it? Why not earlier? In the middst of or just after the revolution I could see a point in all that (to disgrace the previous ruler and his supporters), but ten years later? Why? Was the ground of the new administration so weak? I thought they had problems inside the party.

And to give you again an unsuitable example from Finland; we had our own civil war after we got our independence from Russia. There were the Whites against the Reds (might be simple to understand what those colour symbols stood for, although it wasnt that simple in real life). The Reds were the minority and the ones who lost the war. What is interesting here is the propaganda what both of these sides created and used against the other. Which reminds me these corps in spears -stories. The Reds were told to be most cruel and bloodthirst, there were stories about them killing mauling and bringing shame on corpses of priests and other members of the ruling class, to say nothing of the children...

By this I dont mean that those awful things could not have happened in Russia. It happened in France.

R

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2005, 03:55:39 AM »
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Wasnt this all about something which is not read from published books? About something most of us have not even heard before? Something, which is known (so it seems) only in certain circles and even there mostly by word of mouths?

It is very interesting though. Do you know why they did it when they did it? Why not earlier? In the middst of or just after the revolution I could see a point in all that (to disgrace the previous ruler and his supporters), but ten years later? Why? Was the ground of the new administration so weak? I thought they had problems inside the party.

And to give you again an unsuitable example from Finland; we had our own civil war after we got our independence from Russia. There were the Whites against the Reds (might be simple to understand what those colour symbols stood for, although it wasnt that simple in real life). The Reds were the minority and the ones who lost the war. What is interesting here is the propaganda what both of these sides created and used against the other. Which reminds me these corps in spears -stories. The Reds were told to be most cruel and bloodthirst, there were stories about them killing mauling and bringing shame on corpses of priests and other members of the ruling class, to say nothing of the children...

By this I dont mean that those awful things could not have happened in Russia. It happened in France.

R
Rosebud,

To answer what you say:

These events have been widely discussed in writings by the Russian Orthodox Church since the coming-to-power of Vladimir V. Putin as President of Russia.  He simply allowed the Church to run its own affairs and to say, print and distribute what it essentially wanted to, without any oversight.  Thus, there has been a great deal of literature about in Church circles.  You may wish to consult past edition of the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, or of the St. Petersburg Tserkovnii Vestii, or of others.  It has even been discussed in Pravda, of all places (the "reformed" Pravda).




If you are interested in the destruction of Christ the Saviour Cathedral and what happened to its walls, foundations, stones, as asked by David Pritchard, you may wish to look here:

http://www.xxc.ru/video/index.htm

Now in terms of the beautiful cemeteries on the grounds of the St. Alexandre Nevsky Lavra in Petersburg, and to answer a question that David Prithard raised about the graves, etc., this article from the St. Alexandre Nevksy Lavra in Petersburg specifically answers that question with "yes", among other things, the grave of St. Alexandre Nevksy himself was desecrated.

http://www.lavra.spb.ru/index.php?p=19

So indeed, these are not private things, dear Rosebud, but readily available to those who can read Russian.  But it is such a ghoulish topic....
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 02:56:49 AM by Svetabel »

rosebud

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2005, 04:21:19 AM »
Well, my language repertoire does not include Russian. My English seems to be in a primitive level too, because you treat me like I was an imbecile, Alex. (or is it because I am woman?) Might be also that I interpret you all wrong (my daily work nowadays demands me to concentrate on reading between the lines so I do it all the time and it is rather confusing)

Thank you anyway for those sites (I cant read). I took a few Russian lessons years ago, but there was 200 people in the class, didnt really learn any. Is there information about the parades of dug up corpses or those "scientific experiments" talked about earlier here? To what kind of sources do the writers of the journals rely on?

R

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2005, 04:54:25 AM »
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Well, my language repertoire does not include Russian. My English seems to be in a primitive level too, because you treat me like I was an imbecile, Alex. (or is it because I am woman?) Might be also that I interpret you all wrong (my daily work nowadays demands me to concentrate on reading between the lines so I do it all the time and it is rather confusing)

Thank you anyway for those sites (I cant read). I took a few Russian lessons years ago, but there was 200 people in the class, didnt really learn any. Is there information about the parades of dug up corpses or those "scientific experiments" talked about earlier here? To what kind of sources do the writers of the journals rely on?

R


Dear Rosebud,

I shall pass on all of your comments except to say that I treat you and have treated you with the greatest deference and utmost respect.  I have taken great pains to answer all of your questions in the kindest and most respectful of all manners, as I have found your questions interesting and insightful.  I personally welcomed you to this Board seriously and warmly and if you would please read the entirety of my postings to you, you will see that.

Thus, in order to avoid any misunderstandings on your part in the future, and since I truly do not wish to offend your feelings in the slightest,  I will simply refrain from answering your posts "tout court".  I will continue of course to post generally and to answer others, all-and-one, in this Forum and others.  You will thus be spared any affliction and I will not have to endure postings such as the one-above.  Thus, there can be no friction.

Finally, I am sure that you must understand that in a site devoted to the Romanovs, Russian-language references would surely be used.

Wishing you all of the best, I remain,

Yours Truly,



A.A.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Penny_Wilson

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2005, 04:58:35 AM »
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Penny, I am sorry but it is not a mix-up of some sort.  It indeed did happen.  And experiments were performed on some of the corpses a la sovietique.


How do we know this beyond doubt?  I mean, it seems to me that some mention of such atrocities would have made it into a published instrument somewhere! (This might be a rhetorical question and statement -- I'm really kind of taken aback at this news).

Quote
Have you been granted access to the private diaries still existing in Paris of some of the old Petersburg families?

Do you have an introduction to the great name families that attend the rue Daru?  Have you consulted any archives that may be held at the rue Daru?

Have you been granted access to those 5 members or so of the great name families that attend that Russian Church in Geneva, the Cantacuzene-Speranskiis among others?

Have you thorougly interviewed the members of the Russian Nobility Society in New York to see if they can provide you with access to private family memoirs?

Have you contacted and interviewed the nobles who are members of the Soioz Rucckoe Dvorianstov in Moscow as per the above?

Have you consulted their archives?  Do you wish me to put you in contact with Prince Galitzine who heads it?

Have you read through all the back articles in the La Pensee Russe (Ruckaya Miscil) since 1948 on this subject, a newspaper which was controlled for many years by the Tolstoy family in the Emigration and did not publish things lightly, and which articles may provide you with cross-references to other materials with which you were not familiar?

Have you interviewed the various Bishops and Archbishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad on this subject and have you asked them to open their archives to you and to share their vast amount of private knowledge?

Have you, and this is of primordial importance, sollicited and been granted an interview with His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow and of All the Russias, Alexis II, who in his previous charge as Metropolitan of St. Petersburg and Ladgo, had an intimate knowledge of all of this and who could provide you with much more information than what an old Countess on assignment for Town and Country, of all things, could provide?

Have you sollicited, and been granted, an interview with the Grand Duchess Maria Vladirimovna on this subject, and asked Her assistance in having any family archives opened to you that may not have been opened?


Some of these items I have done in connection with other projects -- read unpublished diaries and letters, interviewed people, etc. -- but as today is the first time I have heard of such atrocities, how could I possibly have researched them before?

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Frankly, Penny, I would never cite what a Countess working for Town and Country would say.  Town and Country is a light, glossy, coffee-table society magazine for the established nouveau-riche.  It would be like my consulting The New York Post on a point of medicine instead of finding an article in The New England Journal of Medicine.


Where did I mention Town and Country?  I didn't.  She didn't work for Town and Country, but rather for a "hard news" organization.  I won't name it because it would make her too easily identifiable, and I don't have her permission to discuss her in a public forum.

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Let me know if I may be of any kind assistance to you here.


I certainly will do so, AlexP (I'm uncertain what to call you -- AlexP, Mr AlexP, Alexander Alexandrovich?), and thank you for your kind offer.  I am really rather appalled that this sort of desecration and abuse happened and passed without comment on the world stage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »