Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress

[David_Pritchard]

I found a picture in the book Fearful Majesty by Benson Bobrick, which supports at least one of the disinterment incidents, the face of Ivan IV reconstruted by a forensic anthropologist using the original skull and modelling clay.

[AlexP]

Dear Penny,

I am sorry that I am somehow understood Town-and-Country for your previous post.  I regret the error.  I understand that you cannot identify the source as a writer and journalist/  So thus you have my respect and my understanding.

On my posting today made in response to an earlier posting by another poster, I supplied the 1917-history page website of the Alexander-Nevsky Lavra.  I believe that you are fluent in Russian, although you have not said so.  Anyway, on this site, about the fourth paragraph down, the Lavra talks quite openly about the desecration of the tomb of  St. Alexander Nevsky and the vandalizing of the cemetery.

Have you sat down and spoken with His Holiness about this?  His Holiness is not that difficult to reach and I would surely be willing to assist you.  He could frankly cause all the waters to part, I believe.  As you may or may not know, His Holiness was in his civil life, or would have been, Baron von Redinger, and he is the son of an old Baltic noble family, well established in Petersburg before the Revolution.  Or if you have an entree with the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, or with Mme Kulivoskaya-Romanova, who is ACTUALLY with the Patriarch in Moscow as of this very minute, either or may be able to secure you the Audience.  In any case, je suis la pour vous aider.

And as for names, whatever is the most comfortable for you.  I am Alexander Alexandrovitch to the Russians that I don't know, some of the older ones actually call me "Vashe Cvetlost", to which I smile, Alex to my associates (actually by Chinese law I must have a Chinese name, so I have a legal Chinese name that approximates the Russian name without the "Vashe Cvetlost" of course, ha.. ), Sasha to my friends, and Sashinka to my wife.  So -- as you like, all, of course, except the last.  My wife might get angry.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.

[Belochka]

The Saints Peter and Paul Fortress is called the Petropavlavskoi Krepost in Russian.  

In Russian the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral is called the Petropavlavskom Sabor. (Please correct me if the case endings are not correct)

To be more correct -

. Petropavlovskii Sobor, and

. Petropavlovskaya Krepost'

Regards,

Belochka  

[rosebud]

Alex,

I am really sorry I lead things to this!

After reading this thread, I was fascinated but also furious about the hint of quarrel in the air. I read your (indeed very polite) answer in that context and misunderstood your way of using certain words (I have a problem with the word dear, I find it a bit humiliating. Maybe because I am a Finn and our politeness culture is quite poor. And perhaps because I am a woman and Finland is quite democratic and egalitarian country which means that gentlemanlikenessies are history, nobody opens the door to a woman anymore f ex, and so that kind of words might be read as some kind of insults if you dont know the speaker)

I have enjoyed your knowledge and your eagerness to share it with the rest of us, me included. If you just could, please answer my future questions (I have a lot to ask). Im so sorry if I offended you with my insecurities and quick temper.
I will miss your thorough explanations!

Sincerely yours,
Rosebud

[Macedonsky]

To be more correct -
. Petropavlovskaya Krepost'

It is interesting that before St.Petersburg was renamed into Petrograd in 1914 the fortress was called Sanktpeterburgskaya (The Fortress of St.Petersburg).

[Angwen]

David-What year was that book published?

Macendonsky-They renamed things to sound more Russian and less German. Thought I wonder why they didn't rename it Piotrgrod I don't know.(or maybe it's just wishful thinking for a major Colosus fan like me!)

Alex-What does Town and Country magazine have to do with tombs?

Rosebud-I have to talk to you some time.It's cool the way you love being femme.

Ms.Wilson-I love it when author/artists are friendly with their fans. I like writing too but I am more into fantasy.
It is really horrifying to think about all these nasty things people do in the name of revolution and greed.

[David_Pritchard]

The book Fearful Majesty, the Life and Reign of Ivan the Terrible by Benson Bobrick was published in 1987.

In the book Prince of Princes, the Life of Potemkin by Sebag Montefiore, there is a graphic discussion of the disinterring of the bodies of Imperial officers from the time of Catherine the Great by the Bolsheviks:

Then came the Revolution: the Bolsheviks gleefully dug up graveyard of Saint Cathrine's that contained the bodies of the officers killed in the Siege of Ochakov. There are yellowed photographs, kept by the local priest today, that show a macabre revolutionary scene; crowds of peasants in the clothes of 1918 point at the wizened skeletons still with hair, wearing braided tailcoats, breeches and boots of Catherine's era - while in the background we can spot the jackboots and leather coats of the Chekist secret police.

A further ghoulish episode is recounted:

He went for a walk through the fortress and saw a sign outside Saint Cathrine's that read 'Kherson's Anti-Religious Museum'. Inside he saw a pyramidial glass case. There was a small brown thing inside it. When he got closer, he saw it was a skull. On the table next to it was written 'The skull of Cathrine's lover Potemkin'. In the next-door case there was a skeleton, still with shrivelled muscles on the bones. A sign read: 'The Bones of Cathrine's lover Potemkin'. In the third case, there were the remains of a green velvet jacket, white satin trousers and rotten stockings and shoes - Potmekin's clothes.

Maybe now that I have quoted a published source, the doubters will believe us when we write about the ghoulish nature of the Bolsheviks.

David

[AlexP]

The book Fearful Majesty, the Life and Reign of Ivan the Terrible by Benson Bobrick was published in 1987.

In the book Prince of Princes, the Life of Potemkin by Sebag Montefiore, there is a graphic discussion of the disinterring of the bodies of Imperial officers from the time of Catherine the Great by the Bolsheviks:

Then came the Revolution: the Bolsheviks gleefully dug up graveyard of Saint Cathrine's that contained the bodies of the officers killed in the Siege of Ochakov. There are yellowed photographs, kept by the local priest today, that show a macabre revolutionary scene; crowds of peasants in the clothes of 1918 point at the wizened skeletons still with hair, wearing braided tailcoats, breeches and boots of Catherine's era - while in the background we can spot the jackboots and leather coats of the Chekist secret police.

A further ghoulish episode is recounted:

He went for a walk through the fortress and saw a sign outside Saint Cathrine's that read 'Kherson's Anti-Religious Museum'. Inside he saw a pyramidial glass case. There was a small brown thing inside it. When he got closer, he saw it was a skull. On the table next to it was written 'The skull of Cathrine's lover Potemkin'. In the next-door case there was a skeleton, still with shrivelled muscles on the bones. A sign read: 'The Bones of Cathrine's lover Potemkin'. In the third case, there were the remains of a green velvet jacket, white satin trousers and rotten stockings and shoes - Potmekin's clothes.

Maybe now that I have quoted a published source, the doubters will believe us when we write about the ghoulish nature of the Bolsheviks.

David

David,

Thank you for your kind assistance.

[Belochka]

It is interesting that before St.Petersburg was renamed into Petrograd in 1914 the fortress was called Sanktpeterburgskaya (The Fortress of St.Petersburg).

Indeed, the designation Sank Petererburgskaya Krepost' transferred its name from the fortress to the new city; to honor St. Peter.

[Michael_II]

Hi Michael_II,

Could you please provide me with the title + author of the book to which you refer?

Thanks in anticipation,

Belochka  

Sorry for the delay in answering.  Health issues.  
The book is The" Romanovs  The final chapter"by Robert Massie.  Pages 126-127 speak of the exhumanition of GD George Alexandrovitch.  It states there was diffculty
in removing the marble slab covering his grave.  Once uncovered the coffin was found undisturbed.  The upper portion the uniform was found in execellent condition the lower portion of the body was under 6" of water.  The team then removed part of the skull and a piece of the leg bone for DNA purposes.  

[Belochka]

They renamed things to sound more Russian and less German. Thought I wonder why they didn't rename it Piotrgrod

The original name of the Fortess was styled in the Duch manner in 1703 as: Sankt Pieterburgh. Its pronounciation transformed to the Germanic form.

[rgt9w]

Does anyone know if the Grand Ducal Vault renovations have been completed? If so, is it open to the public to view and does anyone have any pictures?

Thanks....I'd be interested to see it. It was still closed when I was there 3 years ago.

[rgt9w]

Does anyone know why the decision was made to use floor burial markers in the Grand Ducal Vault instead of the raised marble tombs in the Peter & Paul Cathedral? Was it a matter of space or cost?

[Anekezout]

I was in St-Petersbourg in may-june 2009. The Grand Ducal vault was closed to public but we received permission to see the grave of GD Konstantin KR. They were renovating all this part.
Photos are not allowed in the vault and we were there with three policewoman!

[rgt9w]

Anekezout, thank you for your response. What did the interior of the vault look like. I have seen a photograph the restored stained glass panel of Christ surrounded by Angels.

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15/lubov-sever.a/0_a125_e58335c4_orig

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15/lubov-sever.a/0_a125_e58335c4_orig