Author Topic: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress  (Read 38841 times)

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Offline pers

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2005, 08:56:05 AM »
AlexP, this is shocking!  Are you referring to the tombs in the grand ducal vault alone, or also the tombs in the Cathedral?  I thought it was a MAJOR excercise to open up the tombs...

Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2005, 09:09:19 AM »
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And most of the tombs were desecrated during the Revolution if not all.  The bodies were dug up, paraded around Petersburg quite ghoulishly by the Godless mobs, scientific "experts" were performed on some, etc., etc.


My understanding is that they were never re-buried. All precious metals and jewels were removed to benefit the soviet treasury.



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Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2005, 09:47:11 AM »
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an excellent book on St. Peter and St. Paul.  The only book I know of that is completely devoted to the funeral rites of the Romanovs, their crypts etc.


Are you refering to:

Rityal Pechal'nogo kortejha (incorrectly translated in English as Funeral Ceremonies for Russian Emperors) that was published in St. P in 1998?

There is also a small booklet available that I picked up at the Cathedral complex titled:

Petropavlovskii Sobor Ysipal'nitsa Rysskih Imperatorov (Petropavlosk Cathedral Burial Vaults for Russian Emperors) also published in 1998 by Beloe i Chernoye, in St. P. pp 160.

This second title provides an excellent historical account and includes a list of those buried within the St. Peter and St. Paul Cathedral. There were 41 tombs; excluding the last I. F. and their retainers.  
 


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AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2005, 09:56:48 AM »
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AlexP, this is shocking!  Are you referring to the tombs in the grand ducal vault alone, or also the tombs in the Cathedral?  I thought it was a MAJOR excercise to open up the tombs...



Pers, I am sorry that is shocking, dear friend, but yes, they were all desecrated, all of them, to the last, please see Belochka's post below.  Again, all of us in the Emigration knew this, and my grandmother (my grandfather and my grandmother's three sisters had already been liquidated by that time, as well as my aunt) vividedly remember the parading-around of these dug-up skeletons, some of strung up lamppost style.  It went for two-or-three months.  And yes, they dug and blasted...why do you think that the Krepost was off limits for nearly 80 years and that it is in such a dilapidated state?  Shocking beyond shocking.  But they did the same thing in France nearly 130 years before.  Something disgusting about it.

I believe Belochka is correct.  The burial vaults are there but it is anyone's best guest if (a) any person is really buried there and (b) if there is a person that is buried there, whether or not it is indeed the person named on the tomb.

Nearly everyone doubts it.  Everyone then, everyone know.  And this was done in the name of the people...vox populii.


David_Pritchard

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2005, 10:14:24 AM »
I do know that one of the tombs in the Cathedral is empty, that of Grand Duchess Aleksandra Georgievna, first wife of Grand Duke Paul and mother of GDss Maria Pavlovna and GD Dmitry Pavlovich. She was disinterred at the request of the Greek government and removed to the Greek Royal Family estate of Tatoi during the 1930's.

The Communists also descecrated the tombs of the Rurikid Dynasty interred at the Kremlin. I have read of one of the wives of Ivan IV being paraded around by the groundlings until her burial garments and bones fell to pieces.

David

Offline rlbumich

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2005, 10:57:14 AM »
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Pers, I am sorry that is shocking, dear friend, but yes, they were all desecrated, all of them, to the last, please see Belochka's post below.  Again, all of us in the Emigration knew this, and my grandmother (my grandfather and my grandmother's three sisters had already been liquidated by that time, as well as my aunt) vividedly remember the parading-around of these dug-up skeletons, some of strung up lamppost style.  It went for two-or-three months.  And yes, they dug and blasted...why do you think that the Krepost was off limits for nearly 80 years and that it is in such a dilapidated state?  Shocking beyond shocking.  But they did the same thing in France nearly 130 years before.  Something disgusting about it.

I believe Belochka is correct.  The burial vaults are there but it is anyone's best guest if (a) any person is really buried there and (b) if there is a person that is buried there, whether or not it is indeed the person named on the tomb.
Nearly everyone doubts it.  Everyone then, everyone know.  And this was done in the name of the people...vox populii.



So, we don't know if any of the GDs, GDss or emperors or empress' are really still in their tombs :'(   The only ones for sure we know are intered is NII and retainers!
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AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2005, 11:39:09 AM »
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So, we don't know if any of the GDs, GDss or emperors or empress' are really still in their tombs :'(   The only ones for sure we know are intered is NII and retainers!


Dear Friend,

But then again we don't even know if the bodies of Nicholas and Alexandra and the family and the retainers are really theirs.  The Russian Church continues to say "no" as does the Russian Church Abroad.  Quel cauchemar.....

So essentially, without hyperextensive forensic work beyond the budget of anything available in the Russian Federation, it is impossible to say that any given tomb ACTUALLY contains the bodies of X, Y and Z....except for the recent reburials of Vladimir Kyrillivitch and Kyrill Vladimirovitch.  And the upcoming reburial of the Empress Dowager.  That will make three.

It is one part of history that the Soviets truly suppressed.  It was like a surrealsitic Halloween those last two months of 1917 and the beginning of 1918 and onwards.

Uzash...

Michael_II

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2005, 04:59:42 AM »
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Dear Friend,

But then again we don't even know if the bodies of Nicholas and Alexandra and the family and the retainers are really theirs.  The Russian Church continues to say "no" as does the Russian Church Abroad.  Quel cauchemar.....

So essentially, without hyperextensive forensic work beyond the budget of anything available in the Russian Federation, it is impossible to say that any given tomb ACTUALLY contains the bodies of X, Y and Z....except for the recent reburials of Vladimir Kyrillivitch and Kyrill Vladimirovitch.  And the upcoming reburial of the Empress Dowager.  That will make three.

It is one part of history that the Soviets truly suppressed.  It was like a surrealsitic Halloween those last two months of 1917 and the beginning of 1918 and onwards.

Uzash...

In the book about the gathering of  DNA and identification of the remains of Nicholas II and his family there is a passage which deals with the opening of the tomb of GD George Nicholas's brother.  It states that his (George's) remains were in almost perfect condition except for his lower leg area which had been immersed in water.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Michael_II »

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2005, 05:45:39 AM »
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In the book about the gathering of  DNA and identification of the remains of Nicholas II and his family there is a passage which deals with the opening of the tomb of GD George Nicholas's brother.  It states that his (George's) remains were in almost perfect condition except for his lower leg area which had been immersed in water.


Dear Michael,

Good point.  Perhaps his was one  of the bodies that was still identifiable after the ghouls and it was returned to its place of burials.  I somehow remember this, but I will need to rattle my brain.  I know that there was also some question as to whether indeed it was Michaels' body or not.  It sounds awful, I am sorry.  Once I can collect my thoughts, I will get to back to you here.

Thank you for raising the point. Hikarushka, Belochka, help me.  I am sure that there was an entire story about locating Michael's body, reinterring it, etc., etc.  Can you help me?

Regards from Shanghai,

A.A.


Offline pers

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2005, 06:05:46 AM »
AlexP, I still cannot get over this news - I am actually upset.  Why is this nowhere written.  I have never heard this at all and have been reading books about these topics for the past 25 years.  I even have the Russian printed one on the burial tombs and formalities where everyone is listed.  And twice have been to the Fortress myself...

I understand all you say about vox populi and the St. Denis episode, but still, this is the LAST thing I have expected.

AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2005, 06:25:49 AM »
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AlexP, I still cannot get over this news - I am actually upset.  Why is this nowhere written.  I have never heard this at all and have been reading books about these topics for the past 25 years.  I even have the Russian printed one on the burial tombs and formalities where everyone is listed.  And twice have been to the Fortress myself...

I understand all you say about vox populi and the St. Denis episode, but still, this is the LAST thing I have expected.


Dear Pers,

I am very sorry that this news has distressed you.  I am sure that it was just as distressing to all of proper Petersburg society to have these bodies exhumed, defiled, the jewelry and other precious items stripped off of them and then many were paraded around on pikes (that is the English word I was looking for).

Most of the other Russians on this Board are aware of it, i.e., Belochka has spoken of it, as has Hikaruka.  Mike has not spoken of it but there may be othe reasons there, like courtesy.

It indeed was an exceedingly dark chapter.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2005, 07:12:50 AM »
Grand Duke George's remains were exhumed in July, 1994 specifically to confirm, by DNA sequencing, that the skeletal remains, found Ekaterinburg in 1991, belonged to Nikolai II.

G.D. George was the 28 year old brother of Nikolai II. He died in 1899 from tuberculosis.

In his report Vyacheslav Popov a Russian forensic anthropologist; who participated at the exhumation procedure suggested that there was evidence that the coffin had been previously opened. It was his determination that other Imperial coffins had also been opened during the 1920's.

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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AlexP

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2005, 07:15:29 AM »
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Grand Duke George's remains were exhumed in July, 1994 specifically to confirm, by DNA sequencing, that the skeletal remains, found Ekaterinburg in 1991, belonged to Nikolai II.

G.D. George was the 28 year old brother of Nikolai II. He died in 1899 from tuberculosis.

In his report Vyacheslav Popov a Russian forensic anthropologist; who participated at the exhumation procedure suggested that there was evidence that the coffin had been previously opened. It was his determination that other Imperial coffins had also been opened during the 1920's.

  



Thank you very much Belochka.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2005, 07:17:52 AM »
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In the book about the gathering of  DNA and identification of the remains of Nicholas II and his family there is a passage which deals with the opening of the tomb of GD George Nicholas's brother.  It states that his (George's) remains were in almost perfect condition except for his lower leg area which had been immersed in water.


Hi Michael_II,

Could you please provide me with the title + author of the book to which you refer?

Thanks in anticipation,

Belochka  :)


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Ducal Vault in the P&P Fortress
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2005, 07:25:07 AM »
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Thank you very much Belochka.


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