Author Topic: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?  (Read 134138 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline umigon

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
    • My Family Tree
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #135 on: November 05, 2007, 01:55:29 PM »

That's what I exactly meant. It's nothing personal against you, Carol Jean, but all the evidence you provide is subjective and intangible... I know people who look amazingly like each other and still have nothing in common, genetically speaking.

Furthermore, as belonging to the Royal Family of France is something you knew by oral tradition, it's easy that you could in fact be descended from France's haute noblesse and that this fact has become enhanced during all those generations until you were born. And there were also hundreds of people guillotined and persecuted during the French Revolution who were descendants of other kings of France. Or it could just be a legend. My mother's surname is Berenguer, and in our family oral tradition states that we are descended from the Counts of Barcelona and Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, el Cid. I would love to be descended from them, but as yet I haven't found any tangible proof of it, so I just take it as what it is until now: oral tradition, family legend...

What I mean is what Eddieboy has pointed out: without any biological or documentray proof, your quest, as you name it, won't have any validity as an investigation. I maintain that it would have been impossible for Louis Charles to escape alone; at the same time, it would have been impossible for someone to help him out and not to write anything about it or at least tell it to someone!
Gonzalo Velasco Berenguer

My Family Tree: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=umigon

Royal Families: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=gondan

Offline NAOTMAA Fan

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 143
  • I love NAOTMAA ....and Holly ...most ardently
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #136 on: November 05, 2007, 03:18:55 PM »
His two sons descendants BOTH told their descendants the same tradition that he was of the Royalty of France, that his parents had enormous wealth and that both his mother and father were beheaded at the time of the French Revolution. I ask you who had enormous wealth, were the Royalty of France and both the man and his wife (both) beheaded at the time of the French Revolution? I have found a listing of those beheaded at the time of the French Revolution and I did not find any husband and wife BOTH beheaded BUT the King and Queen.

Like Umigon said, I don't want to be critical or rude towards you Carol Jean, but there were most certainly entire families of Aristocrats, between 18,000 and 40,000 people in total, beheaded during the Reign of Terror. Just off the top of my head, the Marquis de St. Cyr (I'm sure thats his name) and his family were all executed, and even Camille Desmoulins and Luciille Duplessis and their son Horace were all executed. The latter may not be aristocrat's but it just goes to show that entire families were in fact condmened to death. I even recall reading the executioner Samson's memories of having to guillotine small children and them not even being big enough to fit on the scaffold properly.

Again, no offense, I just wanted to point that out.

Also like Umigon stated that they themself may be descended from those persons, I may or may not be related to the Unsinkable Molly Brown (Margaret Brown). My mother's maiden name is Brown and my grandfather has persistently told me she is my great-great aunt by marriage. As much as I'd love to believe him, I'm just the slightest bit skeptical unless I actually had psychical evidence such as a marriage certificate or something to prove it. She did play an important role in the Titanic tragedy, and has even been portrayed in movies, and the idea that I really am related leaves me uncertain as to it's truth. Again it's like one of those family legends.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 03:28:01 PM by NAOTMAA Fan »
"...I am in Tatiana's room...Olga and Tatiana are here. I am sitting and digging in my nose with my left hand... Olga wanted to slap me but I ran away from her swinish hand..."
-Anastasia Nicholaievna Romanova, May 8th, 1913

Offline Eddie_uk

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #137 on: November 05, 2007, 03:37:31 PM »
Not to get off topic but Horace was only about 2 when his parents where guillotined. He died in 1825. I've not read anything about them executing children, i'm a bit skeptical about that. I personally beieve they spared Madame Royale because of her age...
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline Carol Jean

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #138 on: November 05, 2007, 05:18:13 PM »
OK. If you want to tell me I'm full of it, go ahead! Where in the world do you think you would find something written down about an escape of the future king  that they all wanted to see die????? I have had it  with that kind of thinking---yet you believe that that heart that had been thrown around and was as solid as a rock that it proved the boy died in the prison! And you believe that Louis Charles had some sort of diease that made his arms and legs grow long as a fourteen year old boy when he died at the age of seven or eight! Really!! I can only say that this is my last posting. I will not post on this forum ever again.

Offline umigon

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
    • My Family Tree
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #139 on: November 05, 2007, 06:30:14 PM »

Carol Jean, I think we were very polite, and I don't understand your reaction. This is a discussion forum and we come here to discuss. We just pointed out some facts we think would be important to support your theory that you haven't come forward with. It was just that: amiable discussion, I would say. Nothing else.
Gonzalo Velasco Berenguer

My Family Tree: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=umigon

Royal Families: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=gondan

Offline NAOTMAA Fan

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 143
  • I love NAOTMAA ....and Holly ...most ardently
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #140 on: November 05, 2007, 10:18:12 PM »
Not to get off topic but Horace was only about 2 when his parents where guillotined. He died in 1825. I've not read anything about them executing children, i'm a bit skeptical about that. I personally beieve they spared Madame Royale because of her age...

Whoops, I looked that up and you're definitely right, he died that year in Haiti. Sorry about that...  :-[  And I would definitely concur with the notion of Marie Therese's age being a factor in her survival.
"...I am in Tatiana's room...Olga and Tatiana are here. I am sitting and digging in my nose with my left hand... Olga wanted to slap me but I ran away from her swinish hand..."
-Anastasia Nicholaievna Romanova, May 8th, 1913

Offline umigon

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
    • My Family Tree
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2007, 06:54:54 AM »

Teenagers were also executed during the Revolution... I guess not only age, but also her position as a hostage to exchange with Austria, as I think it did occur. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Gonzalo Velasco Berenguer

My Family Tree: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=umigon

Royal Families: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=gondan

Offline Carol Jean

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2007, 06:58:45 AM »
I am sorry for the statement that I made. But really, what kind of document would have been written anywhere that would say that the lost dauphin escaped and that someone had helped him get on a boat and sail to America and freedom? They wanted to kill him as he was next in line to be the King and they wanted to do away with the King and his family. I ask you a question. How much proof did someone have to start the BELIEF that we evolved from APES? Was there some sort of document that said that this human baby had an ape for a mother?
How many people believe this? Yet this was and still is believed. I will just let my book speak for itself and not try to convience anyone that I have some documented proof on this forum.
Thanks for setting me straight!  You are all very inteligent people and I'm sure you know what your talking about. There will be plenty of discussion about this topic I'am sure and some may agree with me and some may think that I don't have enough evidence or nothing in concrete evidence. Ok. Everyone can say and think what they want to, but people have believed a lot of things in this world with almost no evidence to prove it. Enough said.

Offline coquelicot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2007, 10:50:25 AM »
You can't compare speculations about an historical character to this scientific theory of evolution, can you ?
qu'ils sachent du moins, que jusqu'à mon dernier moment j'ai pensé à eux.

Offline Vasaborg

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2007, 03:09:42 PM »
I find it strange that who ever rescued him did not leave some written account of what happened before they died. I cant see such an important moment in history as this going unrecorded.

Offline Carol Jean

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2007, 04:08:02 PM »
Yes, that would have been the absolute thing to do wouldn't it? I guess that everyone would think of doing just that. Any body that has an important place in History writes down what they did. Even if you would get your head chopped off because you were a part of some scheme to free the son of King Louis and Marie Antoinette, you would write it down so that 200 and more years later there would be no doubt about what happened. It would have been really nice if Madame Royal got to see her little brothers dead body so that she could positively identify it but for some strange reason that was not the case. And what is scientific evidence? It is a theory, a belief, based on what some one works on for years and then comes to a conclusion about. Some scientific thoughts do not have any more proof than what some smart educated  person has came up with that everyone else accepts as the absolute truth.

Offline Carol Jean

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2007, 04:17:10 PM »
Oh and Eddie Boy, I would definately look up my genealogy if I was you! You may just be surprised as to who you are relation to (especially since you say you look like them)!  Oh yes, I guess we all look like someone weather we have any connection or not. People look like people thank goodness not the first ancestors that some think we descend from.

Offline Eddie_uk

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #147 on: November 07, 2007, 01:50:39 AM »
Well I wouldn't want anyone thinking i'm after fame and fortune! I will let the resemblance's speak for themselves.  ;)
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline Vasaborg

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #148 on: November 07, 2007, 01:51:42 PM »
I dont think there was much chance of the person getting their head "chopped off" years after the revolution, Its strange that when the Bourbons were restored  nobody said anything about  the Dauphin being alive , if he was alive why didnt he go back to France and claim the throne?

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« Reply #149 on: November 07, 2007, 02:12:27 PM »
And, since the Habsburgs took in Marie Louise and Napoleon's son, why would they ignore the Dauphin of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI ? This whole story is just as preposterous as some ex-princess claiming to be TWICE decended from Nicholas !!. Just a fantasy.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.