Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?

[elena_maria_vidal]

I just want to know why they did not let his sister see his body.

[coquelicot]

Fascinating, elena-maria-vidal ! I'm even more upset...
Thank you for drawing my attention to this topic.

I hope you're right, for obvious sentimental reasons ! Better to imagine the boy getting older quietly than knowing he was dead like a beast!

[elena_maria_vidal]

Fascinating, elena-maria-vidal ! I'm even more upset...
Thank you for drawing my attention to this topic.

I hope you're right, for obvious sentimental reasons ! Better to imagine the boy getting older quietly than knowing he was dead like a beast!

Well, that is why as you said on another thread, people are still debating this. Not to question the DNA, but that heart could have been Louis Joseph's or some other family member's. There is no conclusive proof that it came from Charles (louis XVII).

[coquelicot]

Indeed. Some french surfer said the only thing we can say for sure is that it is a heart genetically related to Marie-Antoinette. And Habsburg-Lorraine family was huge !

[elena_maria_vidal]

Even though dying like an animal after such terrible abuse is dreadful to think of, living in exile, unknown and disinherited, is just as terrible to me. No matter how you look at it, the fate of Louis XVII is not a pretty picture.

Just as in the case of the "Dark Countess" some of the Dauphin claimants were obvious political plants to stir up trouble for the established regime. Claude Perrein, for one, the "Baron de Richemont" who with his brother Jean took turns impersonating Louis XVII, was a member of the Carbonari, an Italian Bonapartist movement. It was also thought that Louis XVIII was sending out boys as decoys from his place of exile, in case his nephew had survived, he did not want competition for the throne, and sought to make the mystery more murky by having a number of claimants turning up everywhere. Lazare Williams of New York, for one, had previous connections with the household of the former Comte de Provence.

[Sissi]

That Louis XVIII was a such a rat!!!!!!! :-/
     

[Sissi]

I have always regarded Louis XVIII as being one of the most evil Frech Royal. His thirst for power destroyed his brother family. I know the Revolution had many otehr aspects, but he definetely encourage the hostility agaisnt MA, and always thought out loud of his brother as an imbecile manipulated by his wife. He was the one who first said that Louis Charles was illegitimate. He did everything he could to undermine his brother reputation and sovereignty.
  In the end he did become King, but I think that he will never cease to be looked at the most intrigant, selfish, dreadful king!
 
  The other Kings and Emperor did not want him to have the crown, I think Talleyrand was the one who convinced them to gave him a chance.

[elena_maria_vidal]

Yes, Sisi, I agree on all points. I'm going to write more about my thoughts on Louis XVIII on his thread when I have more time. For now, let me say that some think that he actively sabotaged Madame Royale's investigation into the fate of her brother, which under the circumstances she had every right to make. His minister Decazes blocked Therese's efforts to communicate with various claimants, especially "Charles of Navarre." OK, so maybe they were all fakes, but as his sister she had a right and a duty to her own peace of mind to explore the rumors.

[Sissi]

I agree 100% with you Elena Maria, her duty was too look for her brother even if they were all fake, he was the only member of her family who could have survived. She must have wished to at least find her brother alive.
 I do not think that she was ever angry at him for the incest accusation! she knew he was a child, who was being influence and maybe force to.

[elena_maria_vidal]

I agree 100% with you Elena Maria, her duty was too look for her brother even if they were all fake, he was the only member of her family who could have survived. She must have wished to at least find her brother alive.
  I do not think that she was ever angry at him for the incest accusation! she knew he was a child, who was being influence and maybe force to.

I don't think she was angry with him either but I do think that the horror of everything that had happened made her experience conflicted feelings on many levels. In such cases there is a thing called Survivor's guilt in which the innocent survivor feels inexplicably guilty for being alive.

[Sissi]

It is sad because nowaday you have profesional help to overcome any type of traumas. But back them she didn´t have anybody to help her cope with it. i think she was highly misunderstood!

  You seemed to beleive that there is a posibility that Louis XVII was removed from prison and got lost somewhere. Do you think that mT could have also be change for another woman?

[elena_maria_vidal]

It is sad because nowaday you have profesional help to overcome any type of traumas. But back them she didn´t have anybody to help her cope with it. i think she was highly misunderstood!

   You seemed to beleive that there is a posibility that Louis XVII was removed from prison and got lost somewhere. Do you think that mT could have also be change for another woman?

No, I do not think M-T was exchanged for another girl, simply because she was before and after more of a public figure. There were many, many people who had seen her every day at Versailles and at the Tuileries before she was put in the Temple. There were many who recognized her afterwards, reputable people, close servants; it did not even occur to them that she was not herself. So many family members - yes, Louis XVIII was shady, but Charles X, even though he was a rascal, was not shrewd enough for such a ruse and was terrible at keeping secrets. Angouleme and Berry were buffoonish in their own ways, but they were terribly indiscreet and would have blurted it to someone; then everyone would have known. I also cannot see them, Artois' sons, being so dishonest. Not to mention Cousin Chou-chou (the Duc be Bourbon) and his son, Enghien. And then the Orleans clan -they would have known and used it to launch a coup sooner than they actually did.

[Sissi]

I recently found this portrait which is said to be Louis XVII at the Tuilerie, I had never seen it before, I see a resemblance but I think also that the boy on the portrait looks old for a 7 years old Dauphin, what do you think? By the way it is at the Musee Carnavalet in Paris.

[ilyala]

i believe elena said once that she thought this was the first dauphin, louis-josephe, his older brother. louis-josephe was thinner and iller, while louis-charles was very healthy and robust.

[Silja]

Well, that is why as you said on another thread, people are still debating this. Not to question the DNA, but that heart could have been Louis Joseph's

It could not have been Louis Joseph's as Louis Joseph's had been embalmed on his death. Embalmed hearts show very different traits from those of the one which certainly belonged to Louis XVII (see Cadbury's book). I'm amazed how you all ignore the scientific conclusions.