Queen Marie Antoinette

[Terence]

Not to divert from the subject, but I recently read a book by Antonia Fraser regarding Marie Antoinette. It mentions that she is related to the doomed Alix of Hesse through the Hessian line.  Since these two women share many similar life events, could someone explain how they are related?

thanks in advance!

lori

Sure Lori, your post intrigued me because I remember it being addressed here before.  I tried to find it w/ the search function, alas even advance search didn't turn it up.  But, darn it you fired up the genealogist in me.

Many minutes later, the closest I can find is that Marie Antoinette and Alix of Hesse are 7th cousins, 4 times removed.  Meaning their common ancestors were 11 generations back: Philipp I 'the Magnanimous', Landgraf von Hessen, 1504-1567, and his wife Christine von Sachsen, 1505-1549.  Any corrections welcomed.  Anyhow, that's pretty far removed, centuries away.

While that is a curiosity to us today, I think the more interesting question is was Empress Alexandra of Russia aware of their blood relationship?  Is there any evidence of that, I mean actual knowledge, not just buying that tapestry?

T

[Mari]

Lady Sutherland could hardly be the intermediary if she was directly given jewels by Marie Antoinette to smuggle out of France - the intermediary received the money from the sale of jewels by Leonard in London and by inference, transferred the money to Marie Antoinette or kept it - there's no evidence which Morel was able to dig up about what happened to it.   The Sutherland story has no evidence from contemporaries and is unsatisfactory in a number of ways - for if Marie Antoinette had no money or even a watch, how had she managed to save pearls and diamonds?  And even if true, what was Elizabeth Sutherland doing holding on to jewels given to her for safe-keeping, when they should surely have gone to Marie Antoinette's daughter?  If Marie Therese had subsequently told her to keep them, surely this would have become part of an attractive legend?  Morel discounts this necklace as having no provable connection with Marie Antoinette, and certainly the story sounds dubious.

O.K. You've puzzled me! So you gave the link but you think the story is dubious...and intermediary means ...dictionary term: "An intermediary is a third party that offers intermediation services between two trading parties." So, Lady Sutherland  "does qualify"  as an intermediary to take the jewels and deal with the jeweler and then once she received the monies did she try and  transfer the funds after the sale to Marie's Daughter assuming the  link held correct information which apparently it doesn't! whew...I think I've got it...

[Mari]

Madame Campan does mention that the English Ambassador, the Duke of Dorset had access into Marie Antoinette's close set of friends. Later  Marie Antoinette mentions that the Wife of the Ambassador who is now Lord Gower, had just given her a proof of the interest She had in her welfare by sending linen for her Son. This of course is Elizabeth Sutherland. (see link)

 Perhaps this is the reason that the story is rumored ....because of a friendship! Lord Gower left a lot of correspondence but I don't have access to it unfortunately! I did look back through the Duchess de Tourzel's memoirs and found no reference.

from The Memoirs of Marie Antoinette by Madame Campan
http://books.google.com/books?id=J9IQXVXdei0C&dq=duchess+of+tourzel+on+marie+antoinette&pg=PP1&ots=_VvS5g1wYp&source=citation&sig=vu_uMRordT3L2Z_YOA030T050aI&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26q%3Dduchess%2Bof%2Btourzel%2Bon%2BMarie%2Bantoinette%26btnG%3DSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2&cad=bottom-3results#PPA296,M1

[CountessKate]

So, Lady Sutherland  "does qualify"  as an intermediary to take the jewels and deal with the jeweler and then once she received the monies did she try and  transfer the funds after the sale to Marie's Daughter assuming the  link held correct information which apparently it doesn't! whew...I think I've got it...

Lady Sutherland might have qualified as an intermediary but the evidence Bernard Morel quotes is that the hairdresser Leonard took Marie Antoinette's jewels to London, sold them to a jeweller, and gave the money to an intermediary to give to Marie Antoinette.  There is no indication that the intermediary was Lady Sutherland; if she was the intermediary she would not have received jewels from Marie Antoinette, but given money from the sale to her.  There is no evidence that she did this; she gave Marie Antoinette linen for the Dauphin.  There is also no evidence that she ever received anything from Marie Antoinette.  I included the link out of interest in that the links to Marie Antoinette are frequently alleged but are rarely plausible.

[CountessKate]

While that is a curiosity to us today, I think the more interesting question is was Empress Alexandra of Russia aware of their blood relationship?  Is there any evidence of that, I mean actual knowledge, not just buying that tapestry?

I haven't found any evidence in any of the letters or other information I've read that Alexandra knew of the relationship with Marie Antoinette, but genealogy was a standard part of royalty's education - it was what they were all about, after all - and she surely would have known of an even more poignant link- their common descent from Mary Stuart, another doomed Queen.

[helenazar]

I think the more interesting question is was Empress Alexandra of Russia aware of their blood relationship?  Is there any evidence of that, I mean actual knowledge, not just buying that tapestry?

I don't think Alexandra's connection to MA was because she thought they were related as much as it was for the fact that she identified with MA in a lot of ways.  Like AF, MA came to a foreign country as a young royal bride to marry the heir to the throne, and both were later hated by the people of their new country. But the main sympathy she felt, IMO, was the fact that MA had trouble getting a son, who was then sickly all his life and died very young... Alexandra would undoubtedly relate to that...

[Terence]

I haven't found any evidence in any of the letters or other information I've read that Alexandra knew of the relationship with Marie Antoinette, but genealogy was a standard part of royalty's education - it was what they were all about, after all - and she surely would have known of an even more poignant link- their common descent from Mary Stuart, another doomed Queen.

I thought I'd seem some reference they were both descended for Mary Stuart.  Do you have any idea re: Marie Antoinette's descent?  I easily see Alix's as Victoria's grandaughter, but how did the Stuart line lead down to MA?

T

[CountessKate]

Do you have any idea re: Marie Antoinette's descent?  I easily see Alix's as Victoria's grandaughter, but how did the Stuart line lead down to MA?

Mary Stuart
 |
James I & VI
 |
Elizabeth of Bohemia
 |
Karl Ludwig, Elector Palatine
 |
Elizabeth Charlotte, Princess Palatine (Liselotte, Duchess of Orleans)
 |
Elizabeth Charlotte, Duchess of Lorraine
 |
Franz I, Duke of Lorraine, Holy Roman Emperor, m. Maria Theresa
 |
Marie Antoinette

There you go.

[trentk80]

Not to divert from the subject, but I recently read a book by Antonia Fraser regarding Marie Antoinette. It mentions that she is related to the doomed Alix of Hesse through the Hessian line.  Since these two women share many similar life events, could someone explain how they are related?

This is how Marie Antoinette descends from the Hessian line:

Landgrave George II of Hesse-Darmstadt
 |
Elizabeth Amalia of Hesse-Darmstadt
 |
Eleonore of Neuburg
 |
Emperor Charles VI
 |
Empress Maria Theresa
 |
Marie Antoinette

[Terence]

Thanks CountessKate and Trentk.

[Romanov_fan]

I didn't realize Alexandra was related to MA not only through Mary, Queen of Scots but the Hessian line as well. Given that all royalty was usually related to other royalty, it isn't surprising. I'm sure Alexandra was aware of it, but it is true that that was not the main source of her interest in MA, it was more personal- After all, Alexandra was related to many other royals by blood too, and was not as interested in them. It would be interesting to know for sure though if she was aware, and what she thought of it.But there isn't likely  anyway to know for sure.

[helenazar]

Well, really... given that something like 80% of British population are Edward III's descendants (at least rumor has it  ) - it's not surprising in the least  . Technically, we're all related in one way or another!

[Eddie_uk]

Does anyone know where I can find out more about dear Malsherbes who volunteered to defend Marie Antoinette? He defended Louis at his trial. He was guillotined with his daughter, granddaughter and her husband. Awful! He seems like such a sweet man.

[Mari]

Malesherbes Daughter married into this family. She and Her Husband and Children will be guillotined.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rosanbo.net/media/photos/photo_malesherbes.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rosanbo.net/rosanbo%2520castle/pages/history.htm&h=179&w=139&sz=10&hl=en&start=13&sig2=KxTT6RSWz2y7kbR3vEGV6g&um=1&tbnid=6PNKKq6JGmAXMM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=78&ei=Bj1KSPf8CoyaeYTSrdwE&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlawyer%2BMalesherbes%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

La Comtesse de Charny
 description of Malesherbes covers several pages.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KDwOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA401&dq=Malsherbes,+lawyer+who+defended+Marie+Antoinette&ei=TThKSKDyBKfSigGSqpDlDQ#PPA401,M1

[Eddie_uk]

Interesting. Thank you so much Mari!