Re: For Serious Claimants, Please

[Candice]

I do apologize for repeating what I said earlier but I can only show you the article that appeared in the The Mail newspaper in 1996. I do apologize for missleading you to believe it was the Telegraph newspaper.   I read both. In fact it was The Mail newspaper that the article appeared in. The article written by Charles Arnold-Baker, states that two imperial grand dutchesses were picked up at Black Sea ports and dropped off at Oran, French North Africa. By HMS Lord Nelson, in 1918.  

If you want me to post it let me know how I can do that. Alternatively you can find it in the 25th September, 1996 issue of The Mail newspaper published in the UK.

This would mean that the Grand Dutchesses could have taken refuge in southern Europe/Africa where no one would suspect who they were rather than East Europe where they were known and were being hunted down and threatened with extinction. This seems more credible to  me and exciting.

The investigation would certainly have to take another route.  I wonder how many potential pretenders would surface now?

[AGRBear]

This information came from an article I saw and in the Telegraph newspaper on September 25, 1996.  I still have the cutting. The small article did not specify which imperial grand duchesses were dropped off at Oran in French North Africa. The article was written by Charles Arnold-Baker.

My belief is consistant with other people that believe that two of the girls did escape.  If this article is a thread one cannot dismiss it.  If this is correct, it would also be feasible that they would've settled somewhere in the south of Europe.

Comments and discussions are not meant to throw egg in anyone's face nor to challenge any one person. This is purely to share opinions and information and possibly stumble into a true credible mystery.

We know that there was a rescue attempt.  What if it had been half successful?  

I think an open mind is needed until all the facts are in.  The only problem is what are the facts and what are the "red herrings"?

If there is a report that two of the girls were rescued and taken to N. Africa, then what can that mean?  It means one of the two girls may have been the girl missing from the Koptyaki grave.  And if it  is true, then one of the two girls must have been recaputred by the Soviets, returned to Ekaterinburg area, killed [for the second time, so to speak] and buried with the others....  I say this because it is said that only one girl is missing from the Koptyaki grave.  

What if one was a girl and the other, Alexis, who was young enough to have pretended he was a girl?  The girls could have cut their hair and braided their hair into his.  Did he and any of his sisters have the same color hair?

If it was two girls to N. Africe and Alexis was taken somewere else that that time and the three were not in the Koptyaki grave after the 19th of July 1918, was there anyone in the grave at this time?

Science is good but, I assume,  it hasn't been discovered how to pin point the exact date the bodies were buried in the Koptyaki grave.

According to the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  alot of bones are missing from the Koptyaki grave.  Perhaps this is because bodies were moved around... We already are told that they were moved at least once from the Four Brothers Mine to the Koptyaki grave.  Were there other graves?  Or were the bodies which were missing added later?  Perhaps after the Red Army defeated the Whites..... 1919....

The  best liers are the ones who stick closer to the truth.


AGRBear

[Donny]

The idea that  some or any of the imperial children survived and did NOT contact their grandmother, the Dowager Empress or their auntie Olga, the Tsars' sister is simply beyond belief.

[rskkiya]

AGRBear,

I was under the impression that all the children (or at least the daughters) had had their heads recently shaved after recovering from the measles- so it may have been rather difficult for them to have braided their hair into a wig for Alexie...although the idea is a weirdly charming one!  

Its an unusual notion....

[Candice]

Donny, I have read that the Dowager Empress never believed that her family were all murdered.  I'm almost positive she knew exactly where they were!  I'm sure that only a handful of people knew the truth.  Possibly someone still knows the truth?   If anyone is still alive.

AGRBear, I don't think the Soviets were ever to be trusted in what they claimed happened or found.  As you say the Koptyaki grave had been disturbed many times.  Also the recent DNA on  Grand Dutchess Ella's finger is questionable.  

In one of the books I've read it mentioned that the Imperial family only communited through postcards, while they were in captivity. I don't know whether anyone remembers reading that.

Could Alexei have been swapped for the kitchen boy?  Before that dreadful night of the murder, the kitchen boy that Alexei used to play with was sent away ages before the rest of the staff were taken away.

[LisaDavidson]

Donny, I have read that the Dowager Empress never believed that her family were all murdered.  I'm almost positive she knew exactly where they were!  I'm sure that only a handful of people knew the truth.  Possibly someone still knows the truth?   If anyone is still alive.

I have spoken with enough members of the family to be convinced that everyone close to the IF believed them to be dead. It was difficult for MF to accept her sons were dead

AGRBear, I don't think the Soviets were ever to be trusted in what they claimed happened or found.  As you say the Koptyaki grave had been disturbed many times.  Also the recent DNA on  Grand Dutchess Ella's finger is questionable.  

Oh boy. I like King and Wilson's approach to the question of what to believe from the Bolsheviks. One must consider their statements, especially if the information can be coroborrated. I think it most likely that the finger which was supposed to be Grand Duchess Ella's was not hers. We still have too many samples of the Victorian mtDNA from live sources to discount them versus this dubious test result.

In one of the books I've read it mentioned that the Imperial family only communited through postcards, while they were in captivity. I don't know whether anyone remembers reading that.

Could Alexei have been swapped for the kitchen boy?  Before that dreadful night of the murder, the kitchen boy that Alexei used to play with was sent away ages before the rest of the staff were taken away.  

Leshka Sednev died in 1928, so a swap is doubtful.

[_Rodger_]

The problem Lisa, is that the tested Victorian lineage doesn't match the Gill results.  This isn't too surprising because there is published variance at position 16111 between T and C in several female line QV descendants, with no heteroplasmy.  This variance is published in Purple Secret: Genes, Madness and the Royal House of Windsor, London, 1998.

So which 'Victorian lineage' are you referring to?

[Donny]

I have to ask, which  of these two threads is the most goofy?  Claimants or 'Serious Claimants?

I get a great laugh from reading both of them.

Lisa, your  twists of logic  and reason are  stranger than Tsar Valmont,  Tsar Doug and MMR4th put together!.

Rodger, we are still concerned about position 16111.

I know, how about a thread titled:  Very, Very Serious Claimants, We're Not Kidding!!

[Candice]

Donny, may I say that truth is stranger than fiction!

I'm not surprised that you find both threads very funny or difficult to comprehend.  How many claimants!!!! DNA is still questionable.  We thought that science at last could solve the puzzle but that was contrived and confused by the soviets themselves.

I read somewhere that there is the Anderson DNA sequence and Dr. Gill's. Both using different methods in determing the DNA sequence.

Roger, as you can see this is above my head. Can you please explain.

[rskkiya]

LisaD,

I don't think that Alexie was able to walk at this time, so that the notion of his being "switched" with the kitchen boy seems a little strange... Also people would have been able to see the differance between the two boys!  

Sigh... sometimes the questions raised in this discussion are wonderful -  and sometimes they just seem  very weird...

PS- What exactly is "wrong" with the DNA?

(please use simple words- I am no expert!)  

[Forum Admin]

Ok
on the "switching Alexei" notion...WHY would the Bolsheviks not be keeping a very close eye on the TSAREVITCH? If any single person could have given the White Army a figure to fight for after Nicholas, it would have been Alexei...You can be very very very certain that Yurovsky would have made dead sure Alexei was in the basement.

[Vera_Figner]

Yes "Rodger" do explain! Didn't you post earlier that you have a background in DNA science?  What field did you say your graduate work is in?

I have looked for the post where you talk about that, but it has been deleted. Fortunately, I saved a number of posts on this subject (yours and others) because it was all so fascinating!

So don't be shy! Tell us about your work.  Will your dissertation deal with the Romanov case? Did you use it for your master's thesis as well?  

What about articles you have written that you can refer us to.  This field is so exciting and ever-changing, and there are so many here who would like to learn more.

[AGRBear]

There are two of Nicholas II's children missing from the Koptyaki grave, Pig's Meadow and the Four Brothers Mine.

All might not have died on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Maybe someone, one of the guards,  wasn't watching that night or maybe the night of the 15th and some or all escaped.  This would have left Yurovsky in a mess....  There were people who recalled trains being searched for members of the Royal Family....  Or do we forget about those statements and call them "white herrings".

And, no matter how hard they  [CHEKA then the GPU then the KGB and all the communists] tried,  they never found the two who were missing, or, if they did, they could no longer bury their mature bones with the others....

AGRBear  

[AGRBear]

AGRBear,

I was under the impression that all the children (or at least the daughters) had had their heads recently shaved after recovering from the measles- so it may have been rather difficult for them to have braided their hair into a wig for Alexie...although the idea is a weirdly charming one!  :)

Its an unusual notion....

I do recall something about the measles and one of the books went into some detail about the measles for a particular reason.  Anyone out there who can remember the point in time they had the measles, if not the measles, then what and when it was which made them shave their heads?

AGRBear

[Lanie]

The children had the measles following a little party given for various youngsters Alexei's age in February 1917 I believe; one of them had the measles, I guess, and they ended up all coming down with it.  The medicine made their hair fall out (I think) so their heads were shaved.