Author Topic: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please  (Read 128406 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #450 on: October 07, 2004, 01:51:18 PM »
Went back and reread Robert's posting and as I scrolled down to read the other postings I found this:

Quote
For one so curious, it is amazing you do not look up and see what is flying right over your head.
The point being made was- no Romanovs were chased down by Soviet assasins- OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA !
Of course any fool with a title who stayed in Russia was easy target practice.
Also, despite overwhelming lack of political support, there was no dearth of open doors for Romanov refugees.
The post stands as signed,
Robert
{who the blank is RALPH ?}


In the above posting you did make it very clear:
"The point being made was- no Romanovs were chased down by Soviet assasins- OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA !"

As to who is RALPH:  I knew a Ralph Hall when I was a kid and I must have thought  Robert and wrote Ralph.  Such occurences will happen to you when you get to the age 62.  People my age call it "having a senior moment".  You'll have to ask Curious One why she called you Ralph, although,  it appears to me she was making a point about the way Robert wrote that particular post.  Robert is usually more precise and calm in his wording. I may be wrong.  I have a feeling Curious One will tell us.   And,  if Robert would like to be a part of the 3 Cat bunch,  so be it .  I'll wave my wand and bidd-ba-bobbi-boo,  Robert is a cat, too.
;)

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #451 on: October 07, 2004, 02:06:54 PM »
Just a couple of points:

Maria Feodorovna lost all 4 sons she gave birth to during her lifetime. It was incredibly difficult for her to lose Alexander in his babyhood and George as a young adult. We have documented sources which detail her extreme anguish. After the Revolution, first her youngest and favorite son was murdered followed by her eldest surviving son and his family, also murdered. The killers both lied about their crimes and exulted in their deeds.

C1, Every parent I know totally understands why MF would deny her two sons were dead, especially given the circumstances. That you cannot indicates you just don't get parental grief, which is fine. I hope you never have to experience it. However, please don't let your not getting it distort our understanding of history.

As to the Grand Dukes being safe once they left Russia, I would say that is still unproven. We know that Stalin went so far as to place agents in Nicholasha's home in France. We know Stalin went so far as to place a KGB agent in Dmitri Pavlovich's circle. This is all invasive enough for me to be suspicious of early deaths of any Romanov. I do not consider this paranoia - in Stalin, we were dealing with a mass murderer of global proportions. Rather, it is a matter of how we go about proving certain deaths were murders.

Do any of you find it convenient that Michael's only child died at age 21 in a car accident? Do any of you find it convenient that Dmitry died of a kidney ailment in his early 40's when he was being treated for TB? When he was feeling much better?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by LisaDavidson »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #452 on: October 07, 2004, 03:04:31 PM »
Lisa, sorry, but no, I do not find the early death by car accident suspicious. It is far too common an occurence. Those sort of incidents do not take account of who is in the cars involved.
As for Dimitry. well, this has been gone over by various authors over the years.  I do not know enough abut TB to make even a guess about his treatment. I have heard, however, that he was far more afflicted by liver disease due to acute alcoholism. Where, you may well ask? Somewhere in these shelves of books I respond. His eventful/sad life certainly made him ripe for such a fate.
Now, the "spies/agents" in the Romanov camps. So what ? I am NOT defending that monster Stalin, but his using agents was no different a tactic than any other power used.  Actually, it is time honoured practice by everybody.  The US had spies in Sadam's court, big surprise that he did the same to Bush/Clinton/Bush ?
Actually, Pres. Clinton once said of a fallen dictator "he had men out to assasinate me, I was trying to do the same to him so what?' or words to that effect.
Anyway, I doubt that he was concerned about who was going to pick up a battered crown from the gutter, he was happy to see the Romanovs bicker amongst themselves over that.  Probably just wanted to keep aware of what they were up to and perhaps find some  $$$ in the bargain.
Cheers,
Robert
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Jane

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #453 on: October 07, 2004, 03:08:23 PM »
Lisa makes an excellent point about MF.

As far as "convenient" deaths referenced at the end of the last post, I admit I don't know much about the specifics of Dmitri's death (beyond the fact that it was Davos, TB, 1942, I'm sure someone will correct me if I have the bare bones wrong), but in all honesty, I've never thought George Mikhailovich's death anything other than a tragic accident.  Speeding car, young man, etc.  Is there any infomation anywhere that indicates it was anything else but an accident?

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #454 on: October 07, 2004, 03:59:46 PM »
Quote
Candice...

OK :) fair enough! Please do list some books (with authors) for me to check out of the library...
Although I have read Summers & Mangolds book ( I find that one very unreliable !) - I would be truly interested in any other sources that you should like to suggest.

I am quite serious. Please just list the books/articles/ magazines in one or two posts --- I sadly am running out of time to spend here! You might not believe me,  but honestly I am willing to see your evidence and examine it fairly.

R. :D

Agrbear: This was what I meant... Rskkiya 8)
Ps. About the whole Cat thing...the FA wants it all to stop!

And regarding any untimely accidents well Stalin "may have smiled a little when it happened"... but I really don't think that the KGB was involved in all expat Romanov deaths. (misquote Kate Hepburn The Lion In Winter)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Candice

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #455 on: October 07, 2004, 05:05:35 PM »
rskkiya, reply #424 Here are just four of the books on my desk: 'The Romanovs, The final chapter' by Robert K. Massie, 'The Hunt for the Czar' by Guy Richards, 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw and 'The plots to rescue the Tsar' by Shay McNeal.  

I have mentioned these books many times before and also mentioned articles that have appeared in 'The Telegrah' and 'The Mail' not the Telegram I don't think there is such a newspaper as the Telegram in existence, rskkiya.  These UK newspapers that I have mentioned are not historical newspapers, they are merely reporting world news.  The authors of these articles(on the Romanovs and DNA) are journalists reporting the latest scientifc findingsb]  I will not say any more regarding newspapers! Otherwise, we might have to start a new thread on 'Credible Newspapers'! ;D

Regards, Candice
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Candice »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #456 on: October 07, 2004, 05:13:22 PM »
As I explained to Forum Admin.,  we must have been writing at the same time and I never saw his post about the cat stuff  so my posts after his oviously looks as if I was not paying attention to his wishes.

I shall obey.

R.-  You have a block on my personal messages so I can not reply to your messages ....

AGRBear


PS  I was not the one who asked what Stalin was doing on the night of 16 July 1918.  That was a good question and an excellent answer and them some  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #457 on: October 07, 2004, 05:13:57 PM »
Candice

Ok Thanks.
By the way "The Daily Telegraph" was an English Newspaper - not the best sort - but that was centuries ago lost in the mists of my youth ! LOL

Anyway I have Massies books- and I will look for the others.
Rskkiya
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #458 on: October 07, 2004, 05:18:52 PM »
Agrbear!
You are not blocked from my PM list (at least not anymore) ;) I blocked a lot of people for about 3 days over a month ago. Post me only if you want to.

Rskkiya

Dashkova

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #459 on: October 07, 2004, 05:42:10 PM »
AGRBear wrote:
PS  I was not the one who asked what Stalin was doing on the night of 16 July 1918.  That was a good question and an excellent answer and them some  ::)

****Ah, sorry about that. It's just that...like "Ralph" writes like Robert, you and C1 could be identical *twins* with regard to writing style and general beliefs.

Dashkova

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #460 on: October 07, 2004, 05:49:15 PM »
Candice wrote:  Here are just four of the books on my desk: 'The Romanovs, The final chapter' by Robert K. Massie, 'The Hunt for the Czar' by Guy Richards, 'The Romanov Conspiracies' by Michael Occleshaw and 'The plots to rescue the Tsar' by Shay McNeal.  

********
The first one listed, Massie's book, is a problem simply by virtue of it's title (there's *never* going to be a "final chapter")

The last three are a fun romp, interesting to speculate, but NOT to be taken seriously.  The last one, the McNeal, is based on a work of fiction.

Anyone have anything better to recommend?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Dashkova »

Offline JonC

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #461 on: October 07, 2004, 05:51:18 PM »
Quote
JonC wrote:

'or from all of them if infact they all escaped, is because THEY DIDN"T WANT TO BE FOUND!!! AND if they had children they probably don't know who they are. '


don't you, JOh, , I think you have some ideas about thison.


Dashkova what are you talking about? ::)

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #462 on: October 07, 2004, 05:52:24 PM »
Quote
C1 posts from Pleasant Valley California, the bay area. Is probably NOT Rodger.


I guess I should be grateful there is doubt in the Forum Admin.'s mind that I  am "probably NOT Rodger".  I am a female as AGRBear fiqured out from the cartoon, so,  it would be pretty hard for me to be Rodger.  

I am, however, displeased that Forum Admin.  has stated that my messages are coming out of Pleasant Valley, CA.  Had I wanted that advertized I would have placed it in my profile.  So, [a shrug], now, all of you know.  It's a beautiful sunny day in the Golden State and I hope everyone is having a great day.

Hey,  AGRBEAR,  you were right.  You even were blamed for what I wrote   ;D.

C1

Dashkova

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #463 on: October 07, 2004, 05:52:25 PM »
Your attempt to quote what I wrote previously failed miserably.

Here's what I wrote:

Oh, I think you have some ideas about this, don't you, Jon.


This is what I mean:

I believe you could expound on your theory at great length.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Dashkova »

Offline JonC

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #464 on: October 07, 2004, 06:10:27 PM »
Jane.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that Nicholas 2nd and his family can be swept under the proverbial rug just yet.

It has been clear to me and I think others on this board that the jusry is still out on the fate of the Romanovs.

I know you quote all those 'so called' eye witnesses and the 'reports' about the 'murders' and the reports, reports..,reports. Yet we still don't have the final word on the 'validity' of these 'reports'.

The DNA, I think to be the most crucial evidence, is seriously in question. Because of that the 'bones' are in question.

I was once told that if you want to find out the truth follow the money trail. I didn't believe there was any money until recently when we all read how the Russian governmet is trying to get the billions of the Tsar's gold held in Japanese banks, it got me thinking.

Not just politics but also Gold makes for strange bedfellows. Thus were the Brits and the Ruskies in cahoot for the loot? Well the Japanese aren't denying the have the 'loot'. They are holding off, and negotiating hard for oil shipment contracts from Russian oil. They also want their island north of Japan back.

Jane my advise to you is to clear your head of all the so called 'evidence' stop drinking the kool aid, and watch and wait for the next ' real' evidence...if it is out there. Best Regards. JonC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by JonC »