Re: For Serious Claimants, Please

[AGRBear]

....[in part]....I don't know whether Stalin had Yurovsky murdered or not, but if he did, it would be keeping in character.  See, this is just another example of "reaching" and trying to make certain things fit, i.e.:  *If* Yurovsky was done away with/disappeared, it was because it was feared he would "reveal" the "truth" about the escape of Nickolai et al.

But there was no reason to Stalin's madness, ok?  He went after *everybody*, starting with (by the time he took power the aristocracy and small middle class were gone) the Kulaks, then the "wreckers" and then with Kirov's murder Stalin went totally nuts going after Bolsheviks, comrades, friends, loyal party members from all walks of life.  We of course, also know he even sent agents abroad and tracked down Trotsky!  But not any Romanovs!

(oh, but according to Litwin, he DID, in Michigan, where the family was supposedly living all cozy with Henry Ford.  The alleged attempt was mostly unsuccessful but after that the family scattered. So saith the distant trumpet Tsar.  I am sure there are others who will speculate similarly, but there isn't any evidence of such murders/attempted murders of secreted Romanovs abroad!)

The point is, saying that: "Oh, Stalin went after Yurovsky...see, see?? You know what *that* means!"

Well, it doesn't mean anything, if you've ever studied Stalin as much as I  and others have. The man was a diagnosed paranoid (he had the diagnosing doctor killed, btw) -- if he suspected anything on Yurovsky, well, hey, join the club, Yakov! He was there along with just about everyone else in Russia during the Stalin era.
....

I have no idea if Stalin had Yurovsky murdered.  Maybe Penny Wilson will explain where she read about  her "hint" that Yurovsky might have been murdered under Stalin's watch.

I do, however, find it interesting that no one seemed to disagree the fact that Stalin was "mad" or "he went after everybody".  In fact,  it is a chilling fact.

Could one or two of the everybodies been  the "real" claimants who could have escaped the CHEKA that eventful night only to be recaptured and later murdered?

AGRBear

[rskkiya]

Agrbear
Good point!
I don't think that anyone here is a big fan of Dear Joseph Dzujchachvilli --I do think him a great hero during WWII but he was quite paraniod...

I think we have gotten of topic " Serious claiments"  I am still confused about the suggestion of an heir escaping from Stalin?

By the way I will be at the library this saturday to investigate the reccomended books mentioned by C1 Candice and yourself.
Rskkiya

[AGRBear]

... [in part]...JonC
By the way your suggestion that N.  & Co. wanted to escape and somehow 'reinvent a life out of the public eye" is one of the cruelest things that I have ever heard!
Do you really think that he was really so selfish as to ignore the sufferings of so many of his kin abroad? Could he possibly have sat by while his extended family mourned him?

Rskkiya

Evidently you are just having fun at Jon C's expense.  Why doesn't this surprise me?   It is unfortunate  Jon C's  suggestion is being rediculed.  Since his thoughts are not that much different than my own thoughts that one, two or all may have escaped.  Unlike R and others,   I can understand what Jon C. is trying to discover.  

Jon C. ,  it is possible that one, two or all of the Imperial Family escaped.  I for one do not believe the history written by the CHEKA of Ekaterinburg, the Ural Soviets nor Lenin and Stalin's people.
----
Here is a good example:  

Time and time again,  we are being told that Lenin did not sent a telegram to Ekaterinburg to give the order of the execution of the Imperial Family.

In the book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalaev pps.  290-291.

In brief the authors talk about Filipp Goloshchekin's visit to Moscow in early July.

"There is some indication that a contingency plan was discussed.  In the 1930s, Yurovsky stated that while Goloshchekin was in Moscow in early July 'the center' decided 'what to do if abandoning Yekaterinburg became unavoidable'-- implying that this was a decision in favor of executing th forer tsar..."

The authors go into the possible trial if  Nicholas II was taken to Moscow.

A few paragraphs later the authors write:
"Did Moscow respond with a direct order?  If a decision to execute the former tsar and his family had alrelady been made in Mocow, no such order would have been necessary.  According to Yurovsky, however an order to  'exterminate the R-----ovs' did arrive in Yekaterinburg sometime before 6:00 in the evening on 16 July [Document 159]."   "But Yurovsky's statement is not proof.  It also raises more questions."
----
You bet it raises more questions by me and others.

Knowing how well Lenin, Ural Soviets and CHEKA could cover up a single telegram,  means to me that they were certainly capable of covering up the escape of one or all of the Imperial Family on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Ryskkiya and others can't seem to accept this possibility.  However, after long last,  they will admit a very very distant possibility one or two of the Imperial Family may have escaped for a day or two or nine months.  [I have no idea  where C1 is taking them on this, althought I can guess.]  But,  I, Jon C., and others can.   I assume that is why this thread was created in the first place because of the possibility there are  "Serious Claimants".

When I, Jon C. or anyone else dares to think  one or all escaped the doubters ask for evidence.

I have mentioned the fact that a high offical in the German community had told people that  when the word came out of Russia around the date of 16 July 1918 that Nicholas II had been executed that it was not to be believed.....

I have mentioned various names of people who claimed they had seen one or all members of the Royal Family after 16 July 1918....

There is evidence that trains were being searched by Red Army who were looking for the "missing" Romanovs...

This evidence is set aside by those who believe the CHEKA, Ural Soviets and Lenin that they executed the Imperial Family.

The CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin and Stalin and other communists have had a long long time to eliminate all evidence that could have proven an escape of one, two or all.

Conspiracy.  You bet!

Why?  As I've said before,  "The CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin and communists did not/  do not want the world to know that the Imperial Family was not executed on the night of 16/17  July 1918 because of the approaching White Army but they  [nine we know of out  of the eleven] were MURDERED when there  was no longer a threat from the White Army rescuers.

AGRBear

PS  I jumped off my soap box before answering R. 's question about  how cruel it was that none of those who escaped had contacted any members of their family.  Since,  we know the Imperial Family would have,  if they could have,  means a lot of things were happening to them.  Probably cruel things.  And, they were not able to tell anyone they were alive.  As the days, months and maybe a year passed,  and, there still was no word,  it may be safe to assume the "nine" were recaptured and murdered.   Two were not found or the CHEKA,  Ural Soviets and Lenin would have left us their bodies to be found just like they did the nine.

PSS  Sorry R.,  I seem to be pointing my finger at you today.  I am talking to all who have placed themselves into a "box" and can't seem to even peep a look at other posibilities.

[rskkiya]

Agrbear
Lets try to be civil!  

  I have agreed to examine the books that were suggested about survivors.And although I am willing to read the books I have not said that I accept the survivor theory ...OK!    Please don't imagine that everyone has a soapbox here(it just makes you look paranoid)
  JonC seems to say a lot of strange things which I was curious about... He implies a very thoughtless and selfish Nicholas in his posts sayingg that that he (N) would wish to escape & tell noone of his survival ...
  I do think that this is just a ploy that  JonC is using to suggest a heritage of Romanovs " in the closet" so to speak...But I may be incorrrect.  I feel that JonC will be able to defend himself from my remarks.

Agrebear
So you believe in conspiracies...OK
Rskkiya

[Robert_Hall]

AGR, et al- What makes you think those of us who oppose

[rskkiya]

Agrbear

  I really do think that my willingness to actually reread some of the books suggested by the pro survivors "club' ought to respected-- not mocked .
  You have complained in the past of uncivil behaviour on this thread...I ask you now to please be a bit more circumspect.   Please!

Rskkiya

PS The FA has made several posts about the the "telegram from the government issue" Please reread them! R.

[Robert_Hall]

Sorry, pc blip.
In any case, I think we have read/researched all the dissenting, alternative works probably long before you & your coterie have.
AND, without relying on propaganda from any politically motivated source have come to the conclusion that there were simply no survivors of that infamous "execution".
The topic here is "serious claimants". In my view, that would be contending Romanov family members or imposters who would have us take their "cause" seriously. The latter of that group have been mostly easily dismissed. Those who were not have been so thouroughly investigated that it is now scientifically certain that they too were false.
As none of your so-called "survivors" have made any claims whatsoever, what are you talking about?
Cheers,
Robert

[Forum Admin]

The reason that this thread demands people provide EVIDENCE about survivors is because as pointed out, it is for those with claims of being survivor/descendants.

this thread is NOT, I repeat NOT about speculation "if" 2 of them survived.
Please go start a hypothetical discussion thread to discuss the "what if's" of their survival.

Anyone who posts here as a claimant or posts purporting to KNOW about claimants will have their hard evidence demanded. As can reasonably be expected. period.

FA

[AGRBear]

Telegram:

R- wrote:
"The FA has made several posts about the the "telegram from the government issue" Please reread them! R. "

I'll be more than happy to read or reread Forum Admin. posting o the telegram.  Where may I find them?  

Meanwhile,  since I've continued to read The Fall of the Romanovs by Steinberg and Khrustalaev,  I see on p. 292:

"The main evidence that a telegram ordering execution came from Moscow is a statement made in the 1960s by a member of the Kreimlin guard who claimed that he personally carried Lenin's message to the telegraph office"confirming" the "decision" of the Ural party committee to execute the former tsar and his family."  following this statement is the number 53.  So,  I turned back to note #53 which reads "Radzinsky, Last Tsar, pp. 345 -346.

So I went out to my garage,  moved about ten boxes and found Radzinsky's book.  

Radzinsky continues with a letter of Nikolai Lapik,  director of the Progress Factory's museum in the town of Kuibyshev p. 345-6:  
"We have in our museium a tpyed record of a conversation between F. F. Akimov and A. G. Smyshlyaev...."

To make it brief,  Radzinsky talks about the telegram and more.  The telegrapher had refused to give up the "copy" of the telegram and the  "ribbon", a gun was pulled, threats and the operator gave up the  "copy" and the 'ribbon".

Radzinsky's conclusion was:
"So, the Sovnarkom and Central Executive Commmitte (that is, Lenin and Sverdlov) sent that telegram to Ekaterinburg  'with confirmation of this decision' about the execution of the tsar's family."


-----

Sorry, pc blip.
In any case, I think we have read/researched all the dissenting, alternative works probably long before you & your coterie have.
AND, without relying on propaganda from any politically motivated source have come to the conclusion that there were simply no survivors of that infamous "execution".
The topic here is "serious claimants". In my view, that would be contending Romanov family members or imposters who would have us take their "cause" seriously. The latter of that group have been mostly easily dismissed. Those who were not have been so thouroughly investigated that it is now scientifically certain that they too were false.
As none of your so-called "survivors" have made any claims whatsoever, what are you talking about?
Cheers,
Robert

We  [I and Robert] have  already agreed he probably has more books in his library than I but I'm not sure if he could out number me if I counted ALL the books I've bought and read. Besides, I'm not sure what the number of books have to do with my theory that there may have been "survivors"  There are many readers who have used the library and don't own but a few books.  

Nor have I ever announced that I thought a "real" claimant or descendant has ever  surfaced.

All I am asking is that you open up your mind to the possible fact that the CHEKA, Ural Soviet and Lenin may have covered up events of the night of 16/17  July 1918 in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg , Siberia , Russia.  I used the telegram because there is a controvery over it's exsistence, too.

And, once you have opened your mind,  then allow those of us who think it is possible that one, two or all may not have been executed that night as the CHEKA, Ural Soveits and Lenin try to make us believe they were.

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

They are on the AA/Anastasia thread, about Oct. 1. in response to British Blue.
the gist of it:Yurovsky was not in direct communication with Lenin. His direct contact was with Sverdlov (chairman of Central Exec Committe in Moscow). The military commander of Ekaterinburg, Goloshchyokin went to Sverdlov in Moscow, and was specifically denied permission to execute the IF. Lenin told Sverdlov that he specifically wanted the IF brought to Moscow for a public "show trial"
Sverdlov's exact words;"Filip, (Goloshchyokin) tell the comrades that the ARCEC does not give official sanction to an execution."

The relevant telegrams are in Last Act of a Tragedy, published in 1996, by Aleksyev, who spent much time going thru all the relevant files and archives  in Russia, able to read whatever he wanted. there simply are NO telegrams from Lenin ordering the murders.

[AGRBear]

The reason that this thread demands people provide EVIDENCE about survivors is because as pointed out, it is for those with claims of being survivor/descendants.

this thread is NOT, I repeat NOT about speculation "if" 2 of them survived.
Please go start a hypothetical discussion thread to discuss the "what if's" of their survival.

Anyone who posts here as a claimant or posts purporting to KNOW about claimants will have their hard evidence demanded. As can reasonably be expected. period.

FA

How can anyone come forth and make a claim if most of you refuse to even consider there is a possibility that one, two or all were not executed on the eventful night in July?

And,  yes,  I agree,  the evidence presented to us by the CHEKA, Ural Soviets and Lenin are as high as a hill I live on but that doesn't mean we can't  weed out the "red herrings" from the truth.  However,  in order to accept a "real" claimant,  it is important to understand someone could have and may have escaped.

Evidence.  I've  retold some of my evidence in my earlier posting.  Like Candice said,  no one seems to care to debate this evidence.
 
If you do,  then what evidence do you have that Mirbach was lying when he told the general not to worry if the general heard the news after the  date of 16 July that Nicholas II had been shot by the Ural Soviets?  Because, to mem,  this sounds like the Germans were ploting a rescue for the 16th of July 1918.

I'd love to read this answer and continue this debate on what-ever thread you care to send me

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

They are on the AA/Anastasia thread, about Oct. 1. in response to British Blue.
the gist of it:Yurovsky was not in direct communication with Lenin. His direct contact was with Sverdlov (chairman of Central Exec Committe in Moscow). The military commander of Ekaterinburg, Goloshchyokin went to Sverdlov in Moscow, and was specifically denied permission to execute the IF. Lenin told Sverdlov that he specifically wanted the IF brought to Moscow for a public "show trial"
Sverdlov's exact words;"Filip, (Goloshchyokin) tell the comrades that the ARCEC does not give official sanction to an execution."

The relevant telegrams are in Last Act of a Tragedy, published in 1996, by Aleksyev, who spent much time going thru all the relevant files and archives  in Russia, able to read whatever he wanted. there simply are NO telegrams from Lenin ordering the murders.

Forum Admin.,  are you asking me to answer this over on the Anastasia thread?  Or,  are you reminding me where there was conversation about the telegram and our conversation continues here?   OR, am I to take all of this  to a thread which needs to be started by me?

AGRBear

[Robert_Hall]

AGR, don't be silly. I was not challenging for a bibliographical inventory and you know it. I was that my p

[Forum Admin]

No,
you asked where to find my postings re telegrams. so I told you.
BUT I did ask earlier that this thread be left to specific Claimants and that the "what if" discussions be in an appropriate thread. There has not been a discussion of a specific Claimant here for ages.

Thanks

[JonC]

To rskkiya, Beloshka & whoever.

So you have come to the conclusion that I'm an heir..OK! you got me!...but? how'd you know I inherited my dad's bills? WOW!...OK!..you must be spychic...tell me since you have 'the' knowledge when will I be rich, and independent?...you don't have to tell me now take your time I can certainly wait!

Listen, seriously now, I have nothing against anyone on this site. As a matter of fact I enjoy the information shared by all because I am learning more and more about the Romanovs and Russia in general.

I think the FA has it right, this thread is for 'Serious Claimants'. Our discussions nevertheless, even though they have slipped into the realm of interpretation and possibilities are important to discovery. Maybe the FA can direct us to another thread.

Whatever the discussion though I don't think anyone of you has the right to start demeaning the one who has a different view of things. I'm not going to point fingers, you know who you are, but AGRBear and I and whoever else should be allowed to, until all the information has been verified, to express a contrary opinion.

I believe in what AGRBear is saying. I thank her for being so meticulous with her explanation of events..much more than I could ever do and I for one would be very unhappy if she could not express herself!!! She adds credibility to her objections to the universally 'accepted' facts by asking pertinent questions and making proper conclusions. I am sure she may be wrong here and there but that's how we all learn.

Best regards. JonC.

P.S. Whoever is a 'Serious Claimant' please speak up!