Author Topic: Re: For Serious Claimants, Please  (Read 126511 times)

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Dashkova

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2004, 06:47:58 PM »

I assume you were referring to my following quote:


If the CHEKA or the Soviets or the Reds didn't fear Nicholas II return to power, or replacing him with Michael or another Romanov then there was no need to order their executions.

What reason do you believe was behind the orders of executions of Nicholas II and the others?

Even the tearing down of the Impatiev House proved the undying devotion of some of the Russians continued to be a thorn in the side of the old communists.

AGRBear

[/quote]

Yes, thank you.  Since you've stated here that you are reading FOTR, I recommend you stay tuned for where the authors discuss who made the decision to kill the family, and why. I agree wholeheartedly with King and Wilson that Lenin did not order the murders, and even encouraged against them.

However, things being as they were in Ural state at that time (a populace that seemed to have a strongly revolutionary bent -- this exists in the Ural area even today!, along with the encroaching White Army) made for a mix that seemed to have led to the decision that was taken.  Pressure, and local politics, and a little panic.  I do not think for a moment that those involved with the murders were terribly concerned about Nicholas retaking the throne.

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2004, 06:55:10 PM »
Dashkova / Candice/  AGRBear...peace! :)

I like to debate and spar as much as anyone, but lets try to keep this discussion friendly...
Candice - you have a very sentimental heart, but the problems in Russia were extreamly complex and the Tsar was an autocrat - he had to shoulder some responsibility for a fair amount (maybe not all) of this chaotic situation.

AGRBear - maybe you might want to read more about the actual White movement and the Russian Civil War... Orlando Figes book "A Peoples Tragedy" is quite good and gives a great deal of clear information!

Dashkova - I agree with you about almost all of this, but I beg you to be patient with those who are not as familiar as you are with the complex history of this era...

R. ;D

Offline Valmont

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2004, 07:07:44 PM »
Candice,
Somehow after reading your post, I get the impresion (besides, thinking I am reading a post from Douglas or Rodger) that you already have a situation "Two GD escaped", or "The whole IF escaped"..and you are looking for the motivations or the events that gave as a consecuence the escaping of the two GD or the IF to the north of Africa.  In one's mind, one can INFERE a thousand  situations that could have brought as a concecuence the escaping of any menber of the royal family based on asumptions or "facts" without suport.

I, same as many other people who post here, would be happy to know for sure that ANY member of the IF escaped alive, but without any SOLID EVIDENCE, I could just keep dreaming that it happened, the rest of my life.

Some other thing, and this goes for everyone. This is a  website to discuss  Russian History, this is not a website to decide who the next  Russian Ruller will be, this is not a summit to aknowledge anyone as the true and legitimate heir to the throne of Russia,  I beleive that we should  bring  the light of knowledge to the events that are related to the last Russian IF, but with solid evidence, same as  Penny & Greg did it regarding  Sophie, sharing that kind of information so others can learn from what we know, I think is one or the porpouses of this website.

So, Candice / Rodger / Douglas / Donny, or whatever name you choose to use, unless you give us any information with a solid support with FACTS, not speculations, to back it up, we can make a whole story of how the IF escaped. (I can help you, I have a very vivid imagination myself, although, I have the feeling you do not need my help very much).

Best Regards,
Arturo Vega-Llausás
Arturo Vega-Llausás

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2004, 09:28:08 PM »
Hello Ming, :)

As far as I know Nicholas' sister Olga Alexandrovna  lived her last years in Canada in a small apartment above a barber's shop. I'm afraid that she died in the late 1990s ( I think) - and sadly-  I do not know the whereabouts of her children.

R.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2004, 09:39:15 PM »
 This web site is a real hoot!

Some people come with carefully thought out questions about very esoteric issues of Russian culture or tsarist society...Some people wish to clarify their already remarkable knowledge of obscure historical ephemera...and some people just want to babble on about anything that wanders through their feeble awareness!

I guess I'm with the third group   HA HA   :D

R.



Offline Robert_Hall

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Kulikovsky are boRe: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2004, 10:02:39 PM »
OA, Nicholas' sister died in 1960, in Canada. Her sons by Kulikovsky are now both dead as well. Tihon in 1993,  Guri in 1984.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Olga

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2004, 01:23:41 AM »
Olga Alexandrovna Romanova-Kulikovskaya 1882-1960
-Tihon Nikolaevich Kulikovsky 1917-1993
  -Olga Tihonovna Kulikovskaya 1964-
-Guri Nikolaevich Kulikovsky 1919-1984
  -Kseniya Gurievna Kulikovskaya 1941-
  -Leonid Gurievich Kulikovsky 1943-
  -Alexander Gurievich 1948-
 

Offline AGRBear

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2004, 01:41:54 PM »
My goodness.  This place is "a jumpin' ".

It appears that certain opinions,  such as a posible escape by one or more from the Ipatiev House,  have been harpooned.

Let me quote the first investigator on scene of the Ipatiev House and the disapearance of the Romanov and the others on the night of 16/17  July 1918.  It was written in the New York Tribune by Herman Bernstein after his meeting with Sergeyev: "...I examined the lower storey of the building where the royal family lived and where the crime was supposed to have been committed.  I do not believe that all the ... people, the tsar, his family, and those with them, were shot there."

For more information see The File On The Tsar by Summers and Mangold p. 89.

It is assumed I've read all the wrong books and do not have the slightest idea what it was really like in Russia.

As I've stated on other threads,  my ancestors were Germans who migr. to Russia at the turn of the 1800s, accept one, who was part of Tsarina Elisabeth II's court in the 1700s.  From the nobility down to the poorest peasant my roots have been issued.  I have heard every kind of story about the Romanov's  to that of Stalin's  rule.  I could match anyone story for story from the glory of serving the Romanovs down to the story where six children had to eat the end of the fingers because they were starving because the communists stated to the villagers that no one was to sell the family food because they were "enemies" of the government.

Perhaps,  my views are different than others on this thread, but, that doesn't make them untrue statements.

For example,  here in the USA we have a huge variety of living due to many events which have occured in our lives.  Some of us were born to parents who were poor.  Some of us were born to parents who were rich.  Some of us were born with HIV because our parents were spaced out and didn't know what they were doing.... From each child has and will be sent forth a different version of his or her life in the USA.  Some people have or will grow up hating the government whom they blame for their troubles.  Some have or will grow up loving the USA and serve the country in all different ways.  This is life.  

So, please,  do not bounce on those of us who see life differently than you do.

Gooooof.

For this old lady that was a long jump off my soap box.

Love the debate so keep it going people.

AGRBear



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2004, 01:56:58 PM »
Quote
AGRBear:  >>
If the CHEKA or the Soviets or the Reds didn't fear Nicholas II return to power, or replacing him with Michael or another Romanov then there was no need to order their executions.




The reasons I named all three, the CHEKA, Soviets and Reds, is because they all had this same fear.  So,  it doesn't matter who ordered the execution, the basic reason for doing it, if it was done that night or a year later, was the same.  I believe after the Revolution of 1918 there was a war called the Russian Civil War which lasted several more years.  Evidently, not everyone was happy with the life under Lenin and then Stalin.  And, if a strong Romanov had exsisted, but done did because they had been killed, and   had risen up against the communists, there might well have been a different fate than Russia ended up having.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Candice

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2004, 06:51:56 PM »
Valmont, my information comes from articles and books which I have mentioned in my posts. If these are the wrong kind of source material than most of the information made public is, therefore, rubbish!

Regards,

Candice

Offline Candice

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2004, 07:00:06 PM »
AGRBear, I tend to agree with you. :)

Candice

rskkiya

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2004, 07:43:51 PM »
AGRBear/ Candice,

    I don't think that anyone here is out to get either of you- although I know that when the discussions get really motivated it might appear that way!

    I am glad that you have such a colorful heritage AGRBear, with such interesting ancestors... they are obviously very very important to you...( Not that it matters, but I'm not at all Russian - simply fascinated with the culture language & history.)

   I still feel that the Summers/Mangold's "alternative history" is very far fetched.  I do hope that you will keep reading and researching... You never know what you might find.

Dashkova

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2004, 08:54:17 PM »
I agree, nobody is out to "get" anybody here.  The only difficulty I have is when broad assumptions are drawn about Russian people.  The old tale about how much the people loved the tsar is a myth. It has provoked annoyance and ironic smiles from every Russian I have ever known, in the states, abroad, and in Russia, from all types of Russian heritage.

My own studies and academic research into this subject only verifies all  I have been told.


Even today, few Russians have much appreciation for the Tsarist period. It's not what they are about now, and if anything, provokes sad memories of ancestors who were enslaved, and then the ugly murders, for which they still feel guilty.  But the interest in this family that is so strong in the west simply is not found among Russian people today.  They wonder why we are so interested.  Ingrid Bergman, Anna Anderson, and Robert Massie have much to do with this, and not many Russians know about any of these. And don't really want to know.

When I was in St. Petersburg last month, my guide did not really want to take me to the Alexander Palace.  "There's nothing there, it is not interesting," I was told. I had to insist several times that we go there. They simply do not get it!  I was told this reaction is typical.

Taken alone, and as good human beings, I have a lot of sympathy and interest in Nicholas II, his family and his ancestors.  He came to the throne at a point in time when maltreatment of the populace had become intolerable and there really was no turning back.  Slavery and the ripple effect it causes is never right, and I can never support such policies from any government, and again, I realize Nicholas II was handed this dreadful situation on a silver platter, and no peaceful solutions. Still, had he been given a different sort of upbringing (i.e.: if his father had not taken a reactionary stand -- though understandable in light of his father's murder) things might possibly have been different, but I doubt it.  He seemed to be unable to comprehend that in fact he was not a "little father" to millions. He had not a clue to their sufferings and did nothing to help alleviate their misery. Despite everything, I believe he could have tried harder.  Certainly for the sake of his beautiful family he should have done so.  That he didn't speaks volumes of his true character.

As to survival, hey, I don't think there's anybody here who wouldn't love to learn that anyone survived. I see nothing wrong with continuing to explore the possibilities.  Humans possessing kind hearts cannot help even today to grieve and hope that somehow there were survivors.

But I think we all have to look at this case with a cold, hard eye. To do otherwise, in my opinion, and as a historian, is irresponsible. The wishful thinking and romance and mystery must not get in the way of the facts.  The evidence indicates that probably nobody got out alive.  Yes, of course, there are hints, and bits and pieces of information floating around like so much flotsam and jetsom, information that could possibly point to a different story.  None of these pieces have yet formed a mosaic that points to a different reality.

This is not to say it never will. Yet in the face of continued research, including Greg and Penny's book,  more is revealed but the outcome remains the same.

I personally believe that several of the books that have been mentioned on this site (all of which I have read, and at one time could quote from Summers and Mangold) are the products of wishful thinking, and not entirely objective research.

I have been reading about and studying this story for many years.  Do I hold a little hope in my heart at this point? Of course. I don't think anybody would feel otherwise.  But the more time that goes by, the more I feel it is a cruel insult to the memory of this family, who most likely perished together, and should be left in peace.

Dashkova

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2004, 09:00:58 PM »
I'd also like to point out that it was the Soviets who restored the palaces in St. Petersburg, while the Alexander Palace struggles with restoration expenses during the post-Soviet period.

Personally, I prefer Moscow. That's the real Russia :)

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: For Serious Claimants, Please
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2004, 12:02:25 AM »
Well, actually, this is only partially true. The Soviet government did fund some restoration work at Tsarskoe Selo for both the Catherine and Alexander palaces before WWII.

However, the Nazis did significant damage there, especially to the Alexander Palace. And, because of the sympathies that were aroused for the Imperial Family when viewing the Alexander Palace, the Soviet government became unwilling to spend any more money to "restore the restoration". Thus, there was no more museum and the building was turned over to the Baltic Fleet.

By the time of the third Russian Revolution, there was still work to be done on the Catherine, and there was a generation of deferred maintenance on the Alexander that needed to be done as a result of Soviet deliberate neglect. So, indeed, the Russian Federation has had difficulty funding work on these palaces.