Author Topic: Catherine de Medicis  (Read 50275 times)

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Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2005, 01:14:04 PM »


Pretty vague reading just one opinion... It is not only that background between 1570-1572 which is important, is the way Catherine had been trying to bring peace to both parties between 1559 and 1572. Try reading "Catherine de Medicis" by Jean Orieux, it is all bvery well explained in that book.


That deaths were not a religious massacre, but a political need, just as Mary Stuart's death was a political need for Elizabeth. And please stop writing "heretics" as if I were to burn all protestants in the stake. I am not a religious fanatic, what's more, I am not a good Catholic, but I recognise what monarchs of both religions did well and what they did wrong. You seem to only acknowledge the good thing protestant monarchs did and the bad things that catholic monarchs did. That is historical revisionism...
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2005, 01:23:02 PM »
I have to say that I think everything that was done in the 16th and 17th centuries has to be taken into perspective - things then were not simply like things now. Things that seem harsh, even evil to us were political neccessities back then, not that I condone any of it. For example, Richard III is condenmed for his murder of his nephews (whether or not he did do it is neither her nor there) but by the standards of his day he was no crueller than any other monarch that was his contemporary. It is the same with Catherine. She was not the personification of evil. Look at what happened in Spain during the inquisition - Catholics vs. Protestants was a battle fought everywhere in those days, and rulers acted in accordance to the best interests of whichever Church they were a part of.

BTW, Michael G and umigon, I respect your discussion but please tone it down just a little - this is the 21st century: no one is a heretic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2005, 01:26:25 PM »


O.K. my dearest Prince, I will not be so nasty! Sorry!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2005, 01:28:32 PM »
Quote

O.K. my dearest Prince, I will not be so nasty! Sorry!


No, no, umigon! No one was being nasty! I was just asking you two to try to relate to each other cordially . . .
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Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2005, 01:33:20 PM »


yes, I know!!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2005, 01:38:39 PM »
Anyway, getting back to Catherine, I was most interested in what you told me about her relationships with her various in laws, umigon. It seems I was under a missapprehension!

Here's a pic:

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Mgmstl

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 01:43:53 PM »
Quote

Pretty vague reading just one opinion... It is not only that background between 1570-1572 which is important, is the way Catherine had been trying to bring peace to both parties between 1559 and 1572. Try reading "Catherine de Medicis" by Jean Orieux, it is all bvery well explained in that book.


That deaths were not a religious massacre, but a political need, just as Mary Stuart's death was a political need for Elizabeth. And please stop writing "heretics" as if I were to burn all protestants in the stake. I am not a religious fanatic, what's more, I am not a good Catholic, but I recognise what monarchs of both religions did well and what they did wrong. You seem to only acknowledge the good thing protestant monarchs did and the bad things that catholic monarchs did. That is historical revisionism...



Oh give us a break Umigon, over 70,000 deaths a political need???? You have now just justified all political/religious massacres in history.  If you read that piece CAREFULLY it covers her mediation of the peace between both parties.....jeez, hardly one sided.

Considering she promoted the massacre, one can hardly call her uninvolved.  Come on Umigon, I am not anti Catholic as you suggest,  Catherine is just not a maligned woman in history, the more I read the more well deserved her reputation is.

Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2005, 01:44:26 PM »


Not so, as I wrote she never got very well with Mary Stuart and she hated Henry of Navarre, but with the others she was a quite loving mother-in-law!


Well, she was obsessed with the prophecy that her sons would die childless and so the Valois line would die out. Maybe her kind treatment to her daughters-in-law was motivated by this fact (she would have been trying to make them comfortable so they could conceive rapidly!). But she admired Elisabeth's religious faith and Louise's tenderness and the love she had to her son, who was not in love with her!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 01:45:57 PM »
How was Catherine regarded aborad? Did other rulers think of her as a mere 'merchant' or did they learn to respect here?
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Offline cimbrio

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2005, 04:31:16 PM »
Quote


Oh give us a break Umigon, over 70,000 deaths a political need???? You have now just justified all political/religious massacres in history.  If you read that piece CAREFULLY it covers her mediation of the peace between both parties.....jeez, hardly one sided.

Considering she promoted the massacre, one can hardly call her uninvolved.  Come on Umigon, I am not anti Catholic as you suggest,  Catherine is just not a maligned woman in history, the more I read the more well deserved her reputation is.



:o  :-/ Peace!!!!

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2005, 04:43:46 PM »
Quote


Oh give us a break Umigon, over 70,000 deaths a political need???? You have now just justified all political/religious massacres in history.  If you read that piece CAREFULLY it covers her mediation of the peace between both parties.....jeez, hardly one sided.

Considering she promoted the massacre, one can hardly call her uninvolved.  Come on Umigon, I am not anti Catholic as you suggest,  Catherine is just not a maligned woman in history, the more I read the more well deserved her reputation is.


Michael, please, there is no need to be snide in suggesting that umigon did not read the piece 'carefully'. Clearly the two of you will have to agree to disagree.
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Mgmstl

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2005, 05:39:23 PM »
Quote

Michael, please, there is no need to be snide in suggesting that umigon did not read the piece 'carefully'. Clearly the two of you will have to agree to disagree.



I wasn't being snide.  I was responding to her statement. She stated the piece was one sided, and it clearly states she mediated for 20 years not taking sides.  I was just pointing out her statement regarding what I posted was incorrect.    I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, but I don't see you calling for her to back down when she refers to Protestants as heretics.  I am all for a balanced view of someone, but for a woman who plans a massacre of all Protestants during the wedding of her daughter to a Protestant, is some what akin to me of a mass genocide.  Not the matronly or loving qualities I would want in a friend or mother or relation.  Clearly if the deaths of over 70,000 doesn't bother you when reading about this woman, and her power, when clearly her dynasty was on it's last leg as the Salic Law ran through France, and she desperately clang to her last son, this clearly bothers me, and after spending a great deal of the time this afternoon reading, I cannot find anything redeemable about her, just my opinion though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Mgmstl »

Offline cimbrio

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2005, 06:18:36 PM »
Michael,
as I said there is no good party in this whole scenario, she was probably what one would call a mass murderer, but she wasn't the only one nor was she the first one, and by far not the worse one... whatever happened during her reign happened for a reason, we must keep that in mind, she wasn't cimply "bloodthirsty". And in this sort of context I think it's not insulting to call Protestamnt "heretics", I'm sure there was no harm intended, it was a way of addressing them. Peace c'mon, lighten up!!!

Regards :)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 05:56:31 AM »
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I wasn't being snide.  I was responding to her statement. She stated the piece was one sided, and it clearly states she mediated for 20 years not taking sides.  I was just pointing out her statement regarding what I posted was incorrect.    I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, but I don't see you calling for her to back down when she refers to Protestants as heretics.  I am all for a balanced view of someone, but for a woman who plans a massacre of all Protestants during the wedding of her daughter to a Protestant, is some what akin to me of a mass genocide.  Not the matronly or loving qualities I would want in a friend or mother or relation.  Clearly if the deaths of over 70,000 doesn't bother you when reading about this woman, and her power, when clearly her dynasty was on it's last leg as the Salic Law ran through France, and she desperately clang to her last son, this clearly bothers me, and after spending a great deal of the time this afternoon reading, I cannot find anything redeemable about her, just my opinion though.


Michael, I have pm'ed umigon about this (umigon is a HE by the way, not a SHE). I am not saying that I would like Catherine as a 'mother or relation' and I wasn't defending what she did, I was merely asking you to take it in perspective.

Re umigon calling all Protestants heretics - how I 'call for him to back down' is between him and me as a moderator, and at the moment does not concern you.

I would ask you both to please let the matter rest as of now, and get back to a sensible and amiable discussion.

Thank you.
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Silja

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 08:28:39 AM »
Quote


, but I don't see you calling for her to back down when she refers to Protestants as heretics.

.


You never really want to understand that she speaks in the context of the 16th century. She doesn't speak from her own point of view but from Catherine de Medicis' and the French Catholics' to present their, not her own, point of view.  She puts the whole thing in perspective, so it's perfectly alright that from that perspective she should call Protestants "heretics". Protestants then considered Catholics as "papists", also a perfectly legitimate expression in the historical context because it illustrates people's views then.


And now a quote  from David Starkey's Rivals in Power:

"The 'Wars of Religion' of the later sixteenth century were notorious for atrocities, the inevitable consequence of conflicts in which neither side regard its opponents as worthy of mercy. But no other had the impact of the massacre of the French Protestant leadership in Paris on St. Bartholomew's Day (24 August) 1572. This arose from the belief, widespread  throughout the Protestant world, that it had been planned long in advance and that Protestants had been deliberately lured to their fate. [...].
It is now known that the 'plot' was a myth. The Queen mother of France, Catherine de Medici, had been panicked into allowing the massacre because she feared that France was about to be sucked into war with Spain, which she desperately wished to avoid. But the plot appeared to confirm the growing belief in the existence of a 'Catholic League' intended to extirpate Protestantism from Europe" (p.162).

St. Bartholomew's Day can thus not at all be compared to the pogrom night of 1938 in Nazi Germany, but more to the September massacres during the French Revolution. In both cases terrible atrocities were committed by the mob and tolerated by the Government. Both events resulted from panic in a climate of fear and mistrust.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Silja »