Author Topic: Catherine de Medicis  (Read 50046 times)

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Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2005, 04:29:44 AM »
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Thanks for that!  ;D

Was Henri a tranvestite or a homosexual, or am I confusing him with someone else?

Did Hercule die young? Was he Duc d'Alencon or am I confused again?  ???



Yes, Henri was both a tranvestite and a homosexual. He cared very much for his personal hygenie, as Kim had already told us, but when he was 28 he had lost his hair and his teeth. We don't really know why, but it is very possible that it was due to some type of sexual transmission illness; like syphilis, for example. This habit of bathing himself very frequently and putting perfume was inherited from Catherine, who bathed five times a week! - that is a great record in those times!


Yes, Hercule was known as Alençon on the Court, or François d'Alençon, the name he chose in his religious confirmation. His family, however, continued to call him Hercule. He died aged 29 without having married or having any children. He was indeed one of Elizabeth's possible husbands, but Henri had already been. Henri had refused to his mothers intentions of marrying him to Elizabeth alleging he was a good Catholic and Elizabeth an 'heretic' (again sorry if anyone is offended! :P). Hercule was too ambitious and he would have loved to marry Elizabeth, who was 22 years his senior, in order to become King of England.  They would have made a strange couple, what a pity Elizabeth didn't decide to marry him!!
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Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2005, 04:31:52 AM »
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August 24, 1572, was the date of the infamous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France. On that day, over 400 years ago, began one of the most horrifying holocausts in history. The glorious Reformation, begun in Germany on October 31, 1517, had spread to France—and was joyfully received. A great change had come over the people as industry and learning began to flourish, and so rapidly did the Truth spread that over a third of the population embraced the Reformed Christian Faith.

However, alarm bells began to ring at the Vatican! France was her eldest daughter and main pillar—the chief source of money and power. . . . King Pepin of the Franks (the father of Charlemagne) had given the Papal States to the Pope almost 1000 years earlier. Almost half the real estate in the country was owned by the clergy.

Meanwhile, back in Paris, the King of France and his Court spent their time drinking, reveling and carousing. The Court spiritual adviser—a Jesuit priest—  urged them to massacre the Protestants—as penance for their many sins! To catch the Christians off-guard every token of peace, friendship, and ecumenical good will was offered.

Suddenly—and without warning—the devilish work commenced. Beginning at Paris, the French soldiers and the Roman Catholic clergy fell upon the unarmed people, and blood flowed like a river throughout the entire country. Men, women, and children fell in heaps before the mobs and the bloodthirsty troops. In one week, almost 100,100 Protestants perished. The rivers of France were so filled with corpses that for many months no fish were eaten. In the valley of the Loire, wolves came down from the hills to feel upon the decaying bodies of Frenchmen. The list of massacres was as endless as the list of the dead!

Many were imprisoned—many sent as slaves to row the King's ships—and some were able to escape to other countries. . . . The massacres continued for centuries. The best and brightest people fled to Germany, Switzerland, England, Ireland and eventually America and brought their incomparable manufacturing skills with them. . . . France was ruined. . . . Wars, famine, disease and poverty finally led to the French Revolution—the Guillotine—the Reign of Terror—the fall of the Roman Catholic Monarchy—atheism—communism etc., etc.

When news of the Massacre reached the Vatican there was jubilation! Cannons roared—bells rung—and a special commemorative medal was struck—to honor the occasion! The Pope commissioned Italian artist Vasari to paint a mural of the Massacre—which still hangs in the Vatican!






Michael G. no one os saying the massacre was a matter of jubilation here, everybody knows it was a horrible thing. But was it all Cathrine's fault? Do you think she really ordered the deaths of 70, 000 people...?

You may think it, but it is known it was not that way. She didn't order that 70,000 were killed...
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Mgmstl

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2005, 06:07:02 AM »
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Michael G. no one os saying the massacre was a matter of jubilation here, everybody knows it was a horrible thing. But was it all Cathrine's fault? Do you think she really ordered the deaths of 70, 000 people...?

You may think it, but it is known it was not that way. She didn't order that 70,000 were killed...


Yes Umigon, I beleive that she had with her astute political knowledge every idea that this massacre could turn into a whole sale bloodbath.  She had to have, feigning ignorance is no excuse.  While there is no reason to believe she ordered 70,000, the King said if it was going to be done, they needed to do it completely. My god how savage and cruel of an act this was, without any conscience to murder innocent people just on a matter of religious conviction.  Jubilation from Rome and a portrait of one of the main massacrers still hangs in a place of honor in the Vatican today.  All of this done in the name of God while the pope danced a jig.  I am sure that God was pleased.

Umigon, I FIRMLY believe in holding all leaders responsible for the decisions they make, and these decisions and this one in particular was like starting an avalanche, and they had to know what the outcome would be or could be.

Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2005, 06:13:21 AM »


If King Charles really ordered that it should be done completely (which I think is not yet totally proven) I think he would mean getting rid of the main leaders, not of every single Huguenot. Catherine didn't want all of them dead and she had very good reasons: the Huguenot army was the bigger and more qualified than the royal army. The plan was to murder the leaders (they were also murderers, so in this we must agree this part of the Saint Bartholomew was a political issue, I am not talking now about the innocents who were murdered afterwards) so that Charles (you can read Catherine there) could control her son-in-law Navarre and the Huguenot army, an army which would be beheaded without its natural leaders and ready for another person to lead it.

This thing about Charles saying that all should be murdered could be true, but there is no real evidence, because the sources are not absolutely reliable. I think Dumas did great harm with his wonderful 'La Reine Margot'!

Of course, this is just my opinion mixed up with historical facts!
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Offline cimbrio

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2005, 08:14:14 AM »
Michael G and Umgon: Happy Saint Bartholomew's Night to you both, don't fall out of any windows! Peace you guys!!!!  :-/

Offline ilyala

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2005, 06:18:43 AM »
while i think st bartholomew's night was a horrible thing, i also don't think catherine was fully responsible for it. i think it  was meant to kill the huguenot leaders and it got out of hand... i don't think catherine was the evil personified, i think she was a bit cold as a person but a good politician most of the time (she made quite a few good decisions). the fact that she tried to make peace between the two religions for 13 years speaks volumes.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2005, 06:19:47 AM »
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while i think st bartholomew's night was a horrible thing, i also don't think catherine was fully responsible for it. i think it  was meant to kill the huguenot leaders and it got out of hand... i don't think catherine was the evil personified, i think she was a bit cold as a person but a good politician most of the time (she made quite a few good decisions). the fact that she tried to make peace between the two religions for 13 years speaks volumes.


Very well said ilyala. I completely agree. good point and well made.  :)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2005, 06:29:01 AM »
thank you lieven *bows and blushes*
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
ilya


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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2005, 06:33:00 AM »
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thank you lieven *bows and blushes*


:D Don't mention it - I'm wonderful at flattering people mercilessly: just ask cimbrio.  ;D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2005, 06:53:42 AM »
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while i think st bartholomew's night was a horrible thing, i also don't think catherine was fully responsible for it. i think it  was meant to kill the huguenot leaders and it got out of hand... i don't think catherine was the evil personified, i think she was a bit cold as a person but a good politician most of the time (she made quite a few good decisions). the fact that she tried to make peace between the two religions for 13 years speaks volumes.




Absolutely true, ilyala, I agree nin everything, yes, that night things got out of hand...
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Mgmstl

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2005, 12:58:02 PM »
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while i think st bartholomew's night was a horrible thing, i also don't think catherine was fully responsible for it. i think it  was meant to kill the huguenot leaders and it got out of hand... i don't think catherine was the evil personified, i think she was a bit cold as a person but a good politician most of the time (she made quite a few good decisions). the fact that she tried to make peace between the two religions for 13 years speaks volumes.



Au contraire....Catherine was shrewd enough to know what could happen, and Charles IX was against it, she finally persuaded him into it, and the massacre was approved.  Why would you not hold a political leader, be it King, Queen, Prime Minister or President or Fuhrer responsible for this despicable type of behaviour?????
The fact that she mediated peace for those years may speak volumes, but the 100,000 ++ dead in France, wipes away completely the years of good.

I think anyone that could do this just as I view the events of Kristallnacht, the massacres in my own country, where race or religion were involved as sickening, and really hope the souls of those involved found themselves burning in eternity for the willfull murder of innocent citizens and their leaders.

I believe that Catherine was evil in the end, and this event would not have had the depth of breadth of it's eventuality with terror & death against ALL of the protestants had she not sanctioned it.  

Have you ever seen the movie "Judgement At Nuremburg" where  Ernst Janning, played by Burt Lancaster, asked to speak to Spencer Tracy's character, the judge, as a person he really got to know during his trial.  Janning was quite an admired jurist in the movie before the onset of the reich, and he said to Tracy,   "Judge Haywood... the reason I asked you to come. Those people, those millions of people... I never knew it would come to that. YOU must believe it, YOU MUST believe it.  Tracy's reply was  "Herr Janning, it came to that the first time you sentenced a man to death you knew to be innocent. "  Truer words were never spoken.

I feel there is no excuse for Catherine's involvement in this.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Mgmstl »

Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2005, 07:52:12 AM »
Back to the same, old Mike? He he I imagine we will never agree!!

I think there is no possible comparison between Caterina Maria Romola dei Medici and Adolf Hitler. Really, I don't think so. Not only the times, but the character and the circumstances were different. No, it is not the same, bby far.


Catherine didn't know the effects of the Huguenot leaders murders and that is proved by accounts of foreign ambassadors, stating that she was horrified herself while she watched through a window all that was happening. I think even a cold `person would suffer under that spectacle, moreover if it had been 'indirectly' produced by her!
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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2005, 09:12:59 AM »
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Back to the same, old Mike? He he I imagine we will never agree!!

I think there is no possible comparison between Caterina Maria Romola dei Medici and Adolf Hitler. Really, I don't think so. Not only the times, but the character and the circumstances were different. No, it is not the same, bby far.


Catherine didn't know the effects of the Huguenot leaders murders and that is proved by accounts of foreign ambassadors, stating that she was horrified herself while she watched through a window all that was happening. I think even a cold `person would suffer under that spectacle, moreover if it had been 'indirectly' produced by her!



No the name is Michael.  Sorry Umigon I don't buy any of it.  Again the minute she pushed for the massacre, for whatever unjustified reason, she & the King became legally if not morally responsible for every death. Over 100,00 deaths considering the population of Europe at that time was quite large.    

Again the minute she ordered the first drop of blood shed she knew it could turn into that.  I am comparing the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre to what Hilter did, I am not saying that the merchant's daughter was Hitler.

Regardless of how horrified she became, history records the fact that she planned, ordered, and supported the massacre, and finally got the King to put her plan into action.

Offline umigon

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2005, 02:43:49 PM »
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No the name is Michael.  


Sorry sir, just trying to make the discussion more friendly. Never mind, Mr. Michael G. it won't happen again, how could I dare writing to you in such terms!

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Sorry Umigon I don't buy any of it.  Again the minute she pushed for the massacre, for whatever unjustified reason, she & the King became legally if not morally responsible for every death. Over 100,00 deaths considering the population of Europe at that time was quite large.    



Weren't they 70.000 (by protestant accounts)? Now they have grown up to 100.000?

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Again the minute she ordered the first drop of blood shed she knew it could turn into that.  I am comparing the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre to what Hilter did, I am not saying that the merchant's daughter was Hitler.


Come on, you know exactly what I was refering to! Precisely to that, I wasn't saying you saw Hitler as Catherine or viceversa, but no, I don't think your comparison has valid standards. And that's for sure, Catherine was not born in Braunau...By the way, if my father was a merchant should I have to feel offended, like when I said, writing in a historical context, that protestants were heretics?

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Regardless of how horrified she became, history records the fact that she planned, ordered, and supported the massacre, and finally got the King to put her plan into action.


No fact in there, Mr. Michael G.. Reports are contradictory. Those which are favorable were written by her friends, those which accused her as the absolut perpetrator were written by her enemies... No points for any of us two in that issue I believe...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by umigon »
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Mgmstl

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Re: Catherine de Medicis
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2005, 04:45:09 PM »
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Sorry sir, just trying to make the discussion more friendly. Never mind, Mr. Michael G. it won't happen again, how could I dare writing to you in such terms!



Weren't they 70.000 (by protestant accounts)? Now they have grown up to 100.000?


Come on, you know exactly what I was refering to! Precisely to that, I wasn't saying you saw Hitler as Catherine or viceversa, but no, I don't think your comparison has valid standards. And that's for sure, Catherine was not born in Braunau...By the way, if my father was a merchant should I have to feel offended, like when I said, writing in a historical context, that protestants were heretics?


No fact in there, Mr. Michael G.. Reports are contradictory. Those which are favorable were written by her friends, those which accused her as the absolut perpetrator were written by her enemies... No points for any of us two in that issue I believe...



The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy in French) was a wave of Catholic mob violence against the Huguenots (French Protestants), under the authority of Catherine de Medici, the mother of Charles IX. Starting on August 24, 1572, with the assassination of a prominent Huguenot, Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, the massacres spread throughout Paris and later to other cities and the countryside, lasting for several months, during which as many as 70,000 may have been killed. The massacres marked a turning-point in the French Wars of Religion by stiffening Huguenot intransigence.

Background
After the third war in 1570, there was a possibility of peace. The House of Guise had fallen from favour at the court and had been replaced by moderates who were more willing to find a peaceful solution to the crisis. The Huguenots were in a strong defensive position as a result of the Edict of Saint-Germain (August 1570). They controlled the fortified towns of La Rochelle, La Charité-sur-Loire, Cognac, and Montauban. Catherine de Medici had hoped that the marriage alliances of her children would support her move for peace, including the proposed marriage of her son, François, Duke of Anjou and Elizabeth I of England.

By 1571, however, hopes of peace were collapsing. Relations between the Huguenots and the Catholics had deteriorated, and in Rouen on a Sunday in March, forty Huguenots were killed because they refused to kneel in front of the host (the eucharist) during a Catholic street procession.

With the Guise faction out at the French court, the Huguenot leader, Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, was readmitted into the king's council in September 1571. The Guises hated Coligny for two reasons: he was the leader of the Huguenots, and they thought he was implicated in the assassination of Francis, Duke of Guise, in February 1563.

The Catholic fleet assembled under Don John of Austria defeated the Turks at the Battle of Lepanto. This confirmed to the Huguenots that Catholicism could resurge across Western Europe, led by Philip II of Spain. In April 1572, Sea Beggars took control of Brielle, thus taking control of Holland. This meant that there was pressure within France to intervene on behalf of the rebels in the Netherlands to prevent a Spanish intervention in France. Coligny was the main supporter of this intervention. There was then the possibility of either another civil war or a major war against Spain, which was at that time western Europe's greatest Catholic power.

Ostensibly to quell the rancour between the Protestants and the Catholics (the House of Bourbon and the House of Guise), the Queen-Mother, Catherine de Medici, arranged for Henry of Navarre, Duke of Bourbon, the patron of the Huguenots, to marry her daughter Marguerite. The wedding provided an extraordinary occasion to get all of the powerful Huguenots in one place. Catherine therefore planned the massacre of many of the Huguenots while they were in town for the wedding, but she had a hard time convincing her son, Charles IX of France, to go along, since he had developed a friendly relationship with Admiral de Coligny. Finally, after much argument, Charles became furious and lashed out at his mother, commanding the massacre to be done thoroughly if it were to be done at all — in other words, he didn't want to face any retaliation, so he ordered them all to be killed.

The massacres
In 1572, a series of inter-related incidents occurred after the royal wedding of Marguerite of Valois to Henry of Navarre, an alliance that strengthened his claim to the throne of France. On 22 August, Catherine's agent, a Catholic named Maurevel, attempted to assassinate Admiral de Coligny in Paris, but succeeded only in wounding him and infuriating the Huguenot party. Then in the early hours of the morning of 24 August, St. Bartholomew's Day, Coligny and several dozen other Huguenot leaders were murdered in Paris, a series of coordinated assassinations that could only have been planned at the highest level. That was the signal for a widespread massacre. Beginning on 24 August , and lasting to 17 September, there was a wave of popular killings of Huguenots by the Paris mob, as if spontaneous.

From August to October, similar seemingly spontaneous massacres of Huguenots took place in other towns, such as Toulouse, Bordeaux, Lyon, Bourges, Rouen, and Orléans. Estimates of the number of those murdered range as high as 100,000. a huguenot source gives a figure of 70,000. Other sources estimate 30,000 or fewer. Among the slain was composer Claude Goudimel.

"Catholics say only 30,000 were slain in the Inquisition of France. Protestants put the number at 70,000. We would prefer the latter figure. If there were 70,000 Huguenots in Paris on the night of the massacre, so much more the justification for the slaughter… We have heard ring out many times the very bells that called the Catholics together on that fatal night. They always sounded sweetly in our ears." (Western Watchman, No. 21, 1912)
Contemporary accounts report bodies in the rivers for months afterwards, so that no one would eat fish. Pope Gregory XIII's reaction was jubilant: although Catholic sources indicate that the news he received from France was that of a serious Protestant plot against the King having been thwarted. In any event, all the bells of Rome pealed for a public day of thanksgiving, the guns of the Castel Sant'Angelo sounded a joyous salute, a special commemorative medal was struck, to honour the occasion, and Gregory commissioned Giorgio Vasari to paint a mural celebrating the Massacre, which is in the Vatican. In Paris, the poet Jean-Antoine de Baïf, founder of the Academie de Musique et de Poésie, wrote a sonnet extravagantly praising the killings. The pope sent Cardinal Orsini to convey, in person, his happy blessings and goodwill to the Queen Mother. It was not the first such pogrom of the Wars of Religion, nor would it be the last.