Author Topic: Jeanne d'Arc  (Read 27744 times)

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Arianwen

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2005, 10:05:45 PM »
Something really wonderful is that the trial transcripts still exist. I have a copy in the 1430 French, which will do most of you little good, but I can translate it and post it if you like. What's most amazing to me is reading how this peasant girl basically showed up the Church fathers and made the trial look like a farce.

A fact that isn't widely publicised: Jeanne jumped out a tower window to try and commit suicide, or to escape. Sources differ on the two. She was surprisingly little hurt, but kept under much closer guard and without windows, I believe...

Regards,
Arianwen

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2005, 11:26:50 AM »
I would love for you to translate that for us, Arianwen! Thanks!  :D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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bluetoria

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2005, 01:27:55 PM »
What is very sad about Jeanne's trial is the way that it was decided to try her for witchcraft. Had she been a man, of course, this would not have happened. The idea was that is she admitted to 'hearing' her saints, she would be accused of setting herself up as higher than the Church authorities. If she denied hearing them, she would be denying the truth - and so (in her view) 'losing her soul.' She very cleverly - considering her lack of education, managed to avde the questions for a long time. The same charges were made of devil-worship because she wore 'men's clothes.' The whole trial was a cruel and wicked act - imo. Part of the reason she wasn't canonised until 600 years after her death was because she didn't 'fit the bill' of a meek little woman - it was due entirely to sexism within the Church.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2005, 02:08:09 PM »
I agree blue. Apprently, Jeanne was so clever at retorting to her persecutor's agruments that they were considerably frustrated with her . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Arianwen

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2005, 11:57:07 AM »
So today, Arianwen begins the valiant search through folders and folders of research material from Oxford and Penn State...;) Hopefully, I'll find my trial transcript this afternoon, will have a translation up tonight or tomorrow morning, and you can all see for yourselves just what a remarkable defense Jeanne put up for herself. Anyone who wants a transcription of the original Middle French can let me know, too, and I can do that by e-mail. Prince, should I post it as an attachment, a web-hosted file, or just as a usual post? It's a bit long...

Regards,
Arianwen

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2005, 12:05:02 PM »
Thanks Arianwen.  :) You could post it in segments, I guess.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Arianwen

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2005, 12:26:14 PM »
Quote
Thanks Arianwen.  :) You could post it in segments, I guess.


Segments it is, then, boss...*wink and two-finger salute à la Han Solo* ::)

Regards,
Arianwen

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2005, 12:43:38 PM »
Anybody see the Luc Bessant film with Mila Jovavich as Joan. It got slated but I thought it was quite a good film and i am sure there is a sequence where she jumps out of her prison window to attempt suicide/escape.
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Arianwen

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2005, 12:53:50 PM »
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Anybody see the Luc Bessant film with Mila Jovavich as Joan. It got slated but I thought it was quite a good film and i am sure there is a sequence where she jumps out of her prison window to attempt suicide/escape.


'The Messenger'. I always found it an interesting take on it, that Jeanne was really deceiving herself and the voices were really her own, crying out for revenge. The scene with her sister made me violently ill, and I still can't watch it, but the rest of the film is quite well-done. They show amazing aspects of medieval warfare we never see elsewhere, and Tchéky Karyo and Vincent Cassel are just awesome. ;D I love when Vincent Cassel tells her she has an arrow in her leg, and she matter-of-factly says, 'Well, then, take it out!' Milla always seemed either eerily calm or downright hysterical, but her acting at the end of Orléans was phenomenal.

I don't remember if they showed the tower jump, though. I'm fairly certain the Leelee Sobieski mini-series doesn't, and most tend to overlook it. I'm almost 100% sure the jump actually took place, though, that it's not just a myth. There are other, really disturbing ones, too, one suggested strongly in the mini-series, but Jeanne's own testimony tends to prove that one wrong.

Regards,
Arianwen

Offline Robby

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2005, 04:29:23 AM »
I hated 'Messenger' it doesn't is a good movie! It's véry incorrect! Jeanne's sister wasn't murdred by the Godons. Actually I think the movie: 'Joan of Arc' with Leelee Sobieski is a better, and correct film. Only a little bit too romantic! I hated really 'The Messenger' with Milla! In our counrty the movie has too Michelin stars and the movie with Leelee Sobieskie four or five.
“Courage! I have shown it for years; think you I shall lose it at the moment when my sufferings are to end?” Marie Antoinette

bell_the_cat

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2005, 11:01:15 AM »
Joan features in Shakespeare's Henry VI Part 1. In Shakespeare's version she really is a witch, and a bit crazy as well!

Her final curse on the English is seen as the kick-off to the unfortunate events of the Wars of the Roses.

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2005, 09:47:16 PM »
Ok. St Jeanne is one of my all time favorite saints. First of all, she was a peasant from Lorraine, and her real last name, the name of her father, was not "d'Arc" but  just plain "Darc." (They changed it to "d'Arc" after she was ennobled by Charles VII for her services to France.)

She was not killed because of sexism but because she was an enemy of the English, whose prisoner she was. The bishop who condemned her and presided at the mock trial, Bishop Cauchon, whose name was henceforth used to call pigs, was in the pay of the English, and his treatment of Jeanne COMPLETELY contravened ecclesiastical (Roman Church) law. Jeanne appealed "to God and to our Holy Father the Pope" which meant she should have been immediately sent into a convent in the care of nuns and questioned by the Holy See directly. It was her right under church law.

However, the evil Cauchon and his English masters insisted that she be guarded by coarse English soldiers. She wanted to put on a dress but was afraid the guards would rape her so she kept on the male attire. They did this to her on purpose so they could accuse her of being a relapsed heretic.  She denied  hearing her saintly voices in order to get away from those men, but when they tried to molest her, she retracted her recantation, realizing that she had betrayed her voices, and so was considered "relapsed."

King Charles VII, at the urging of Jeanne's feisty mother, took the case to Rome 20 years later and Jeanne's innocence was officially declared. It had all been completely contrary to church law to begin with and many bishops, priests and faithful were appalled by it. And rightly so, it was a travesty. Jeanne is the Patroness of France with St Therese of Lisieux. She is also Patroness of Soldiers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2005, 01:14:49 PM »
Charles VII must have had plenty of influence with the Pope to get him to admit the Church had been wrong in a decision made a mere 20 years earlier!  :o
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2005, 08:11:59 AM »
Prince, it was not a decision made by the Church, but the ruling of a bishop acting outside of Church law, in proceedings which contravened Church law.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Jeanne d'Arc
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2005, 08:18:43 AM »
Oh, I see. But did the church consider it legal then?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."