Author Topic: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne  (Read 27003 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« on: August 28, 2005, 01:21:47 PM »
Here's a thread about these two Stuart queens regnant!

First, the facts:
#Mary II, or the Lady Mary of York, as she was then, was born on April 30 1662 to Prince James, Duke of York and heir presumptive to the throne of England, and his wife, Anne Hyde, daughter of Charles II's chancellor, Edward Hyde, Earl of Clarendon. The Lady Anne of York was born on 6 February 1665. Though Anne Hyde produced many other children, only Mary and Anne survived. Charles II, whose wife was childless, recognised that Mary at least stood a chance of becoming Queen of England some day, so he declared her and her sister 'Children of the State' and had them brought up as Protestants. They both became devoutly pious, especially Anne.

#Since their father's second wife, Mary Beatrice of Modena, produced no living children either, it seemed more and more likely Mary would be one day Queen. So, in an effort to get Parliament off his back (they were heckling him about a secret treaty with Catholic France) Charles insisted that Mary marry the person next in the line of succession after Anne - the girl's first cousin, William of Orange, son of their father's sister the late Princess Royal. Mary did not wish to marry William. She wept the entire day after she was told. William was 27 and Mary was 15. When the couple were being 'bedded' Charles II said with characteristic flair 'Now nephew, to your work! St George foe England, hey!'

#Now known as the Princess of Orange, Mary accompanied William back to Holland, where she soon became popular with the Dutch people. She was still, at this stage, heiress presumptive to the throne after her father. Sadly, though she conceived three times, she had no children with William, whom she grew to love dearly.

#Back in England, Lady Anne of York married Prince George of Denmark in 1683. He was rather stolid and dull, but Anne adored him. Even though it was her sister who was heiress, Anne was seen as representing the 'Protestant Faction' in England, especially after the death of Charles II in 1685. Anne conceived 18 times, but only one child, William, Duke of Gloucester, born in 1689, survived.

#In 1688, three years after James II became King, Queen Mary Beatrice gave birth to a son, James Francis Edward Stuart. Princess Anne of Denmark, as she was then known, had taken special care not to be at the birth so she did not have to admit the baby was legitimate. Instead, she spread the rumour that it was a changeling. The Princess of Orange, in Holland, had no idea what was happening, and Anne fed her letters, claiming the baby was not their brother. Mary, encouraged by her ambitiou husband, was inclined to agree.

#In the Glorious Revolution of 1688, William of Orange invaded England and James II fled with his wife and baby son. Parliament wanted to offer the crown to Mary, but William insisted he should be king, and his wife agreed. they became, 'Joint Sovereigns' - William III and Mary II, though the real power rested with William, which suited Mary well enough.

#During her reign, Mary fell out with Anne over the latter's continued friendship with Sarah Churchill. Sadly, the didn't make up before Mary's death of smallpox in 1694. William was devestated, and said he had never known Mary to have had a single fault.

#With the death of the Duke of Gloucester in 1700 aged 11, there was no Protestant heir to the throne. So the Act of Settlement was passed in 1701, stating that after William, Anne would reign, and then the throne would pass to Sophia, Electress of Hanover, a granddaughter of James I.

#Anne became Queen in 1701, by now grossly overweight and suffering from gout. She had no children, and her husband died in 1707. She eventually fell out even with Sarah Churchill. She died in 1714, the last of the Stuarts.

Now, opinions please!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 05:08:11 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2005, 02:57:28 PM »
Well, I'll give my opinion on their characters:

Mary II
I think Mary was the more likable of the two. She had what is often described as a 'feverish charm'. She had the Latin blood of her great-grandmother Marie de Medici - she was energetic, restless and charming. I don't know if she felt any remorse at betraying her father - she had no information, only what Anne told her. In any case, her devotion to her husband was too great to allow anything to get in its way.

Queen Anne
Whereas Mary had a Latin temperament, Anne had the English character of her Hyde relations. She was slower, perhaps a little plodding, and she was capable of much cattiness. She resented her stepmother, Mary Beatrice, and insisted that the latter hated her, though she 'pretended' to be kind. She certainly never expressed any regrets - she was devoted to the Protestant cause. She disliked her brother-in-law, William - 'that Dutch monster!' Anne was capable of holding grudges for a very long time . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2005, 02:59:45 PM »
Queen Mary II:



« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 05:14:57 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2005, 03:02:05 PM »
Queen Anne:




« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 05:15:36 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2005, 03:11:41 PM »
I must admit I am not particularly interested in these two ladies but the one thing I DO find fascinating and tragic is Anne's obstetric  history. of 18 pregnancies,13 were stillbirths (one of which was a set of twins), a miscarriage,3 daughters- the longest lived only surviving to about 18 months, a son,George, who only lived a few minutes and William who died aged 11 of Hydrocephalus. Its truely pitiful.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2005, 03:13:33 PM »
As I posted before, Kim, I heard this was to do with Anne's blood - her blood was too thick to pass through the placenta so the babies were weak. An aspirin could have thinned her blood enough to let it pass through . . . and thanks for posting!  :D I was waffling to myself here!
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2005, 04:36:29 PM »
Well...its always good to waffle to yourself.....at least you know what your on about ;D
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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2005, 04:37:15 PM »
What did Anne die of?
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2005, 05:23:18 PM »
She died of 'suppressed gout, ending in erysipelas, which which produced an abscess and fever.'

Her heiress, the Electress Sophia, had died just weeks earlier, apparently after receiving a very frosty telegram from Anne.

Anne was so corpulent at her death, that her coffin was apprently almost square.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2005, 03:47:26 AM »
I' ve just dug out a book from the "scarey area" (under the bed) called "Royal Poxes and Potions" and they also list renal failure and Uraemia which could account for her  size because she would have been grossly oedematous ( swollen up from retained fluid). Of course, she could also have eaten too many pies ;D
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2005, 06:32:41 AM »
As can be seen from the portraits, she was not an unnatractive young woman. She had much of the auburn-curled, dark eyed look of her Stuart ancestors, though apprently Anne had quite a squint that gave her a sour, petulant look.

Mary was very tall, about 5'11, like her ancestor, Mary Queen of Scots, and towered over her husband William. I'm sure they would have made an interesting site gliding across a ballroom!  :D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

umigon

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2005, 08:08:19 AM »


In my opinion, both Mary and Anne were not good persons. Mary was a coward, who pretended to be her father and stepmother's friend and she just betrayed them to make her husband happy. Anne's treatment to her only son, William of Gloucester, was disgusting...

Not the sort of women I'd like to meet! Doy you think Mary's relation to Frances Apsley was not only a friend relationship but also a sexual one, as some people claim and what can be understood from their letters, in which they called to themselves as 'husband and wife'? And what about Anne's friendship to Sarah Churchill, were they only friends or lovers as some courtiers thought?


I personally think Mary did have a lesbian relationship with Apsley. And Anne, I think she thought Sarah was hers, not as a friend, not as a lover, but as an object, as she did with so many other people (husband, son, etc.). She didn't realise though that she was being used by Sarah!

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2005, 08:26:17 AM »
Umigon, this is interesting - tell me more of Anne's treatment of her son! Please!

As for Mary and Frances, there is no evidence either way. As I said on the 'Non Hetero Royals' thread, I am inclined to beleive they did not have a lesbain relationship. Frances was older than Mary - it was simply adoloescent hero worship. Mary often said she 'loved' Frances, but that was not uncommon for women to say to each other in those times. they were very close friends certainly, but lesbians? I don't think so . . .

Anne and Sarah Churchill is a different matter. Sarah certainly beleived Anne was a lesbian - she claimed she was having an affair with Abigail Masham once Sarah was out of favour.

Remember, Sarah was 5 years Anne's senior, and they way Anne listened to her advice implicitly suggests an element of hero worship here too.

Their parting was very bitter. 'I beleive nobody was ever so used by a friend as I have been since coming to the Crown,' fumed Anne, while Sarah retorted 'She meant well and was nobody's fool, but nobody can maintain she was wise, or entertaining in conversation.'

That is certainly true. Being neither a reader nor particularly intelligent, Anne's conversation seemed to consist entirely of petty tittle-tattle.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

umigon

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2005, 09:09:10 AM »


William suffered since his birth a strange illness that made him a feeble child without strength in his legs... I am sorry, but I don't know what the name of his illness is. William couldn't use his legs very well and he spent much time on a sofa that was moved by courtiers (similar to what would happen to his mother in her last years of reign). When he was better and could move his legs, he was forced by his doctors to walk up again and again some stairs in Hampton Court. When William had reached the limit of his possibilities and cried for help, his mother often made his doctors hit him until he did it. Of course, he never did it and he died aged 11. His mother was devastated. She probably was, but as I said, she loved people as if they were objects, not persons.


About Mary's relationship with Frances. Well, lets see: I have some quotations from her letters to Frances here. I am translating them from Spanish into English, so I am sorry if there is any error:

* She treated Frances as 'husband' and called her 'Aurelia'. This pseudonym thing seems more a love issue than other, but not an important piece of evidence!

* 'You would have news from me every 15 minutes if it was possible'

* 'The paper of all books wouldn't suffice to describe the love I feel for you, my dearest, dearest, dear Aurelia'

* 'There is nothing inthis heart, nor in this breast, nor in my guts or my belly, but that you will see'.

* 'I would like to be a lice in your breasts'

* '(I am) your humble servant, I will kiss the sole you put your feet on, I will be your chained dog, your fish traped in a red, your bird imprisoned in a cage, your humble trout'

* 'Oh, show me a bit more of mercy, and love me again, or kill me with your disdain, because I can't stand your indifference, my dear, my beloved, loved, warm, charming, helpful, sweet, loved Aurelia'

I am sorry Prince Lieven, but for the first time I must disagree with you! ;) I think that Mary had a lesbian relationship with Frances, those words seem more of true and sexual love than of friendly love and admiration!

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Stuart Sisters: Mary II & Anne
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2005, 09:18:01 AM »
Thanks umigon!

Well, the one about being lice near Frances's breats is suggestible, but as for the others - Mary called herself 'wife' to indicate that she was entirely submissive to Frances, as a wife would be expected to be at the time. The 'Aurelia' was from a play they had been in together, I beleive. That she calls herself a faithful servant is even more indication of her hero-worship - Mary lived a very sheltered life, and to her Frances was a sophisticated, god-like creature.

It is possible they had a relationship, but it seems unlikely given Mary's youth and the fact that both women later married happily.

And don't worry bout disagreeing with me, umigon! it's a tough job but someone's got to do it!   ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."