Author Topic: Tracing the Plantagenets  (Read 29095 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Tracing the Plantagenets
« on: August 29, 2005, 02:49:51 PM »
Hello all! Just me rambling on about inconsequential issues as usual . . .  ;D

Does anyone want to help me with this genealogical adventure? I want to try to trace the Plantagenet line of Isabella, sister of Richard, Duke of York (father of Edward IV) and the lines of the children of Duke Richard (Edward excluded). I would like to trace them to, say, the beginning of James I's reign.

Let's start with Isabella (1409-1484).
She married Henry Bourchier, Earl of Essex (1409-1483). These were their children (not including those who died young):
1. William, Viscount Bourchier (1427-1483). He married Anne Woodville, siste of Queen Elizabeth.

2. Henry Bourchier (d. 1462). He married Elizabeth Scales, Baroness Scales - did she later marry Antony Woodville??

3. Humphrey Bourchier, Lord Bourchier of Cromwell (born before 1443, died 1471). He married Joan Stanhope.

4. John Bourchier (d. between 1485-1494). He married Elizabeth, Baroness Ferrers.

5. Thomas Bourchier (d. 1492). He married Isabella Barre.

 William's Children:
1. Cecily - married John Devereux, Lord Ferrers (a relative of her aunt, Elizabeth Ferrers?) and had one son: Walter Devereux, Viscount Hertford - was he an ancestor of Essex, Elizabeth I's favourite?


2. Henry Bourchier, Earl of Essex (1491-1539). He had no legitimate children, but his natural daughter Anne had the style Baroness Bourchier. She married William Parr, brother of Queen Katherine Parr.

I can't find any info on any more of Isabella's grandchildren - any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.  :D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2005, 04:26:16 PM »
Yep, Elizabeth Scales did marry Anthony Woodville.
William Bourchier's 2nd wife was Anne Woodville. They had 2 children..Cicely and Henry.
Cicely married John Devereux, Lord Ferrers.Their son, Walter Devereux also had a son called Walter Devereux and HE married Lettice Knollys. Their offspring were Penelope, Robert and Dorothy.... so there is your link.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2005, 04:51:08 PM »
I've started looking ....the list is HUGE....is there a prize ;D
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2005, 04:52:53 PM »
Thanks so much Kim!  :D

As a matter of fact, there is a prize - my undying respect and admiration.  ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2005, 04:55:18 PM »
Most gracious of you ( I suppose :P)
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2005, 04:59:43 PM »
It is indeed.  ;D

Now, my next question - Henry Bourchier, Lord of Cromwell: his mother-in-law was Maud Cromwell. A relative of Thomas Cromwell?  ???
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Arianwen

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 12:17:22 AM »
Quote
It is indeed.  ;D

Now, my next question - Henry Bourchier, Lord of Cromwell: his mother-in-law was Maud Cromwell. A relative of Thomas Cromwell?  ???


According to my (not infallible) source, Humphrey Bourchier was the one who was Lord Cromwell, but I'm not having any luck so far finding information on Maud. I'll keep looking though...

Regards,
Arianwen, who's rejoicing at her brand-new God status. ;D

Arianwen

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 12:26:16 AM »
Quote

According to my (not infallible) source, Humphrey Bourchier was the one who was Lord Cromwell, but I'm not having any luck so far finding information on Maud. I'll keep looking though...

Regards,
Arianwen, who's rejoicing at her brand-new God status. ;D


Follow-up: I've had two sources now saying it's Humphrey, and that his marriage produced no children, so his title died extinct. Nothing so far on a link between Maud Cromwell and Thomas Cromwell, or even Oliver and Richard Cromwell, for that matter...

Regards,
Arianwen

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2005, 06:16:13 AM »
Congratulations on becoming a God, your Worshipfullness . . .  ;D And thanks for the help!  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2005, 06:31:26 AM »
oliver and richard are related to thomas cromwell through one of thomas' sisters, i believe... her husband took the name cromwell after the disollution of the monasteries (to show his appreciation)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2005, 03:02:28 PM »
I'm gonna join you tomorrow....my TV prog is on now :-*
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2005, 02:37:03 AM »
Richard and Cecily had 13 children but we can rule out Joan, Henry,William, John,Thomas and Ursula because they died in infancy or when very young. Edmund died unmarried, on the battlefield .That leaves us with Richard, George, Margaret, Elizabeth Anne and Edward. And we arenot looking at Edward.
Margaret married Charles the Bold , Duke of Burgundy and had no issue. That leaves us with Anne, Elizabeth, George and Richard.

Richard III 1452-1485 married Lady Anne Beauchamp Neville, they had one son- Edward of Midddleham, Prince of Wales- who died aged 11 years.
Richard had 3 illegitimate children;
1) Catherine Plantagenet- married William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke- no issue.
2) Richard Plantagenet 1469-1550-a stonemason.
3) John of Gloucester, Captain of Calais 1470-1499 died unmarried.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2005, 03:11:53 AM »
George 1st Duke of Clarence 1449-1477/78 married Lady Isabel Neville and had issue;
1) Anne Plantagenet 1470.
2) Richard Plantagenet 1476-1477
3) Edward Plantagenet Earl of Warwick 1474-1499 executed and unmarried.
4) Margaret Plantagenet, Countess of Salisbury 1473-1541.She married Sir Richard Pole and had issue.
a) Ursula Pole married Henry Stafford- no issue.
b) Sir Henry Pole married Jane Neville and had issue;
     Catherine Pole 1520-1576 married Francis Hastings they had 3 children; Henry, george, Elizabeth and Francis Hastings.
c) Reginald Cardinal-Archbishop of Canterbury 1500-1558.
d) Geoffrey 1501-1558 married Constance daughter of Lord Pakenham and had issue.
e) Arthur married Jane daughter of Sir Roger Lewkmor and had issue.
Some sources say that Ursula had issue but I cannot find them and I have got to go do the dishes ;D
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2005, 04:21:01 AM »
Quote
oliver and richard are related to thomas cromwell through one of thomas' sisters, i believe... her husband took the name cromwell after the disollution of the monasteries (to show his appreciation)

Yes, they are descended from Catherine Cromwell, Thomas's sister.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Tracing the Plantagenets
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2005, 05:51:20 AM »
Thanks Kim! Now I will contribute:

1) Lady Anne Plantagenet, daughter of Richard, Duke of York and Lady Cecily Neville (1439-1476). She married firstly, Henry Hollan, Duke of Exteter (1430-1475). They had one daughter:
a) Lady Anne Holland (1455-1475). Anne Holland married Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset (1455-1501), son of Elizabeth Woodville by her first marriage. The match was childless

Lady Anne Plantagenet married secondly Sir Thomas St Leger (ex. 1483). They had one daughter:
a)Anne St Leger (1476-1526). She married George Manners, Lord Roos (d. 1513). their children:
Lady Eleanor Manners (d. c.1547). She married John Bourchier, Earl of Bath and had: John Bourchier, Lord Fitzwaryn (1529-1556) and George Bourchier (1531-1600).

[ii]Thomas Manners, Earl of Rutland (1503-1543). He married Eleanor Paston and had: Henry Manners, Earl of Rutland (d. 1563); Gertrude Manners (d. 1566); Anne Manners (1526-1549); Frances Manners (1540-1576); John Manners (1543-1611); Roger Manners ( before 1543-1607); Thomas Manners (b. before 1543); Oliver Manners (before 1543-1563); Katherine Manners (before 1543); Elizabeth Manners (before 1543).

[iii]Lady Catherine Manners, married Richard Constable and had: Marmaduke (yep that was his name); Margaret.

I hope you guys can understand that!!! I wonder, is Eleanor Manners' husband a relative of the Bourchiers whom isabella Plantangenet married into?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."