Author Topic: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon  (Read 216737 times)

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Offline frimousse

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2006, 05:30:17 PM »
A photography of Edgar Hanfstaengl with whom Sophie-Charlotte had a romantic and platonic affair at the time her engagement to King Ludwig II was broken. They had a secret correspondence.

From the book of Heinz Gebhardt:
"König Ludwig II und Seine Verbrannte Braut. Unveröffentlichte Liebesbriefe Prinzessin Sophie's an Edgar Hanfstaengl."
W. Ludwig Verlag, 1986.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frimousse »

Offline Sissi

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #106 on: June 15, 2006, 03:55:45 PM »
maybe this one has not been posted already!


Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2006, 09:43:41 AM »
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A photography of Edgar Hanfstaengl with whom Sophie-Charlotte had a romantic and platonic affair at the time her engagement to King Ludwig II was broken. They had a secret correspondence.

From the book of Heinz Gebhardt:
"König Ludwig II und Seine Verbrannte Braut. Unveröffentlichte Liebesbriefe Prinzessin Sophie's an Edgar Hanfstaengl."
W. Ludwig Verlag, 1986.

On a documentary about Sophie on Bavarian television I heard Heinz Gebhardt say that Sophie's relationship to Hanfstaengl was not only platonic. In his opinion they had intimate relations - and I agree.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2006, 09:37:04 AM »
Sophie definitely had an eye when it came to handsome men (King Ludwig, Edgar, Ferdinand ...)  ;)

I am fairly interested in her relation with Edgar Hanfstaengl. I have read the several letters quoted in the Paoli bio but still knows very little. I have been looking for a copy of the Gebhardt book for years now but have not yet managed to get one. Does it tell much on this subject ?

Offline Djedj

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2006, 05:38:38 AM »
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Dear discussion group,
Is there anything you would like to mention about him? I read that he should be king of Spain (?) ... but why?

According to Y. D'isné, in "Ferdinand-Philippe d'Orléans, Duc d'Alençon - Un Prince contemporain" (dec 1911) :
(I have to state beforehand that D'Isné is more than a bit hagiographic in his book...)
The duc and the duchesse d'Alençon had left Rome and were getting back to Bavaria in short stages, not to lose anything from the typical beauties of the trip.
Then, the spanish revolution, that had chased queen Marie-isabelle from the throne, felt unable to contain the floods of disorders it had unchained ; the dictator Serrano, renouncing to establish the republic in the Asturies, successivly offered the crown to the Duke of Genoa and Prince Leopold of Hohenzollern ; the candidacy of the latter was a worry for Europe ; thus when Serrano, reaching for Comte Daru - French foreign minister - started steps to propose the crown of Spain to the duc d'Alençon, Napoléon III let it be known that he was very much in favour of this project.
Baron Tristan Lambert, the so lawful friend, so deeply devoted to the duc d'Alençon, tells how M.Bocher was sent by Comte Daru to the duc de Nemours, and how the latter transmitted the proposal to the duc d'Alençon, who declined immediately: he had served under queen Marie-Isabelle*, his loyalty forbade him to occupy a throne he didn't consider vacant ; but above all, he was a prince français and, even in exile, held to that title he placed above any greatness.
The duc de Nemours transmitted that definitive answer to comte Daru...

* He served in the Spanish Army in the Philippines in 1866

If anyone has questions about the life of the duc, I can look through that book to see what it holds ; as I said before it's somehow hagiographic, so everything here is VERY proper and Christian.
Jerome
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Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #110 on: July 06, 2006, 10:39:05 AM »
Did someone can explain  the circumstances of the wedding of S-C??? I know that just after the engagement with LUDWIG II broke (end of 1867), Empress Elisabeth asked her father and mother to send S-C at court in Wien ( or purhaps to GODOLLO??) . Did S-C went to Elisabeth?? But what was the link with Alençon ? ?? Was he in WIEN ?? Why and when did Alençon knew S-C?? A link between the Wittelsbach - Habsburg and the Orléans was the royals of Belgium, but 1867 is the year of the death of emperor Ferd-Max at Queretaro, and empress Carlotta at Miramare, "insane", ... also the K.K emperor, Franz-Joseph  was fighting against king of Belgium for the austrian inheritance of Ferd-Max, trying to keep Miramare e Lacroma as Habsburg estates... So ?? Why? Where? When??? and quite immediately, in 1868, the wedding... ???

C-C  

Offline Djedj

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #111 on: July 06, 2006, 12:16:06 PM »
According to Y. D'isné (in "Ferdinand-philippe d'Orléans Duc d'Alençon - un prince contemporain", Lethielleux, 1911) :
In summer 1867, Alençon went with his father and sisters to the baths of Rippoldsau, in the Grand Duchy of Bade.
Then they went to Bavaria where the were the guests of the Royal Family.
After which they made it back to England.

Isné says that Alençon "took away in his heart the picture of princess Sophie-Charlotte, a duchess in Bavaria, then in all the charm of her delicate and gracious beauty".

Meanwhile Princess Clementine, aunt of Alençon, wrote to Bushy-House, advising to ask for the hand of the duchess, "the impression left at the court by the Duc d'Alençon giving confidence in the outcome of that enterprise".
The Duc de Nemours did start the proceedings, and Alençon was invited to get to the Queen of Saxony's court, where he was to meet with Marie-Sophie.

The fiançailles took place on june 24th 1868, and the wedding on september 28th 1868 at Posenhofen castle.
The young couple proceeded to Bushy-House, where Princess Louise was born on July 9th 1869.


It is all a veeeeerry proper book - so nothing scandalous will even remotely be hinted at there !  ;)
Jerome
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Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #112 on: July 06, 2006, 01:04:04 PM »
"Meanwhile Princess Clementine, aunt of Alençon, wrote to Bushy-House, advising to ask for the hand of the duchess, "the impression left at the court by the Duc d'Alençon giving confidence in the outcome of that enterprise".
The Duc de Nemours did start the proceedings, and Alençon was invited to get to the Queen of Saxony's court, where he was to meet with Marie-Sophie. "
You think Sophie, I guess...

So, Thank you very much... I DID NOT  thought to something scandalous (sexual) but to something sad :  a huge pressure about the girl to marry Alençon very quickly because she was 20, because the broken engagement was a shame, because  the love story with the photographer was not good for a royal wedding  ... such as it could explain that she seems to have never had an entire "consensus" to be married with - as one of you said - the saint...

Anyway, I have some difficulties to think in the certainty  of a sex story with the young and beautiful photographer ... I remember what my grandmother told me about the way her mother did with the boys in the last years of 19th century... impossible to meet a boy and to be alone with a boy... purhaps a prince with a common girl, an actress... but a princess ...  with ladies on waiting, governants, etc etc... The most of thems married as virgins.

People think on those "royals" as on common persons, but their dayly life was so different: THEY ALWAYS LIVED under the eyes of so many people... we see photographies were they are quite alone, without servants, but I guess they lived like to-day a professional of the tv lives on the sets. Castles, war, ceremonies, church... = sets, were one do seriously things to be seen, to be looked at...  only the powerfull ones had the possibility to conquer a few solitude...

Are you the person who create a site upon Eu and Alençon in Spain during tha african war ??? Very interesting... bravo !  

Anyway, many many thanks

C-C



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by pouvoir_aux_canard »

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #113 on: July 06, 2006, 04:04:25 PM »
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Anyway, I have some difficulties to think in the certainty  of a sex story with the young and beautiful photographer ... I remember what my grandmother told me about the way her mother did with the boys in the last years of 19th century... impossible to meet a boy and to be alone with a boy... purhaps a prince with a common girl, an actress... but a princess ...  with ladies on waiting, governants, etc etc... The most of thems married as virgins.

People think on those "royals" as on common persons, but their dayly life was so different: THEY ALWAYS LIVED under the eyes of so many people... we see photographies were they are quite alone, without servants, but I guess they lived like to-day a professional of the tv lives on the sets. Castles, war, ceremonies, church... = sets, were one do seriously things to be seen, to be looked at...  only the powerfull ones had the possibility to conquer a few solitude...


You have to consider that the family of the Dukes IN Bavaria didn't have that much ladies-in-waiting, servants, etc. Sophie's confidante was her own lady-in-waiting Natalie von Sternbach who arranged all these intimate meetings of Sophie and Edgar. Sophie's older brother Carl Theodor also knew about Sophie's relationship to Edgar. He sometimes went with Sophie to Pähl, the castle of Hanfstaengl's family at the Ammersee in Bavaria, where she was able to meet him. Duchess Ludovica, Sophie's mother, didn't know this, of course.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #114 on: July 06, 2006, 04:07:35 PM »
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Sophie definitely had an eye when it came to handsome men (King Ludwig, Edgar, Ferdinand ...)  ;)

I am fairly interested in her relation with Edgar Hanfstaengl. I have read the several letters quoted in the Paoli bio but still knows very little. I have been looking for a copy of the Gebhardt book for years now but have not yet managed to get one. Does it tell much on this subject ?

Yes, it does. The book contains copies of all the letters written by Sophie. Besides, there is some information about their secret meetings, Edgar's visits in Munich and Possenhofen (he had to bring them photographies, of course ...  ;)) as well as a short biography of Edgar.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #115 on: July 06, 2006, 04:47:27 PM »
You have to consider that the family of the Dukes IN Bavaria didn't have that much ladies-in-waiting, servants, etc. Sophie's confidante was her own lady-in-waiting Natalie von Sternbach who arranged all these intimate meetings of Sophie and Edgar. Sophie's older brother Carl Theodor also knew about Sophie's relationship to Edgar. He sometimes went with Sophie to Pähl, the castle of Hanfstaengl's family at the Ammersee in Bavaria, where she was able to meet him. Duchess Ludovica, Sophie's mother, didn't know this, of course.

I agree with you... Duke Max Palace in Munich or Possenhoffen were not the court of a monarch ... but sincerely what do you think about meetings arranged by Nathalie von Sternbach or by her brother (responsibles as "chaperons" for Sophie against Duke and Duchess) ?? Sophie had no possibility, alone, to meet Edgar. Someone helped her and someone knew she was meeting Edgar... This makes the difference.

C-C

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2006, 08:38:06 PM »
I have the Gebhart book and it is well informed of the affair bettern the photographer and Sophie...

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2006, 08:39:49 PM »
Can you tell about the marriage between the Duc and his wife Sophie around the time of the Dr. Glazer incident ? How did he felt about all that ?

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2006, 11:48:07 PM »
Some of the Counts von Kageneck, and their descendants, today are the only descendants of Louise d'Orléans as her son Josef Clemens of Bavaria died unmarried nad without children.

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Offline Sissi

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Re: Sophie, Duchess d'Alencon
« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2007, 02:58:25 PM »


Young Sophie:





with Emmanuel: