Author Topic: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?  (Read 71960 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2006, 02:47:05 AM »
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GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.20

Dear Belochka,

I need David's help here.  Is she actually a Spanish citizen?  Can we be sure of that?  I thought that she was a French citizen and that had been reported to me by friends in Paris.  David, can you confirm this?

Next, surprise, surprise, but since 1992, at least,  she is ALSO a Russian citizen again, by decret of the B. Yelstin and she has travelled to and from Russia on a  "spetzpasport", definitely not the ordinary Red one and this I know for a fact from "tamozhniki" friends of mine  "no  rodinu".

[size=10]M.V. was born in Spain 23 December, 1953, and that would make her Spanish. Her paternal family have resided in Madrid for some seventy years.

I am aware that Yelsin granted her a passport but more importantly he did not offer her the status that she sought.[/size]
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And frankly, to stir things up around here, she is a superb choice.  She is by far the most talented, most soberminded, most educated and well-travelled Romanov that has ever existed.  She has a presence about her and the quality of her Russian language (unlike that of her father) is quite classical and literary.

If you wish to stir the pot about M.V.'s credentials that is fine! ;) Her Oxford degree does not enhance her false pretensions on the political sphere. It is rather sad that she appears to be denying her son to appreciate his father's heritage. As a second generation Spaniard his mother's exaggerated pretensions for her son seem very weak indeed!

Her diluted Romanov blood cannot be denied, but she is not a member of the current Romanov House by reason of her marriage to Prince Franz Wilhelm.

Margarita


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Offline AlexP@asia.com

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2006, 08:01:35 AM »
GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.24

Dear Belochka,

There are many issues here upon which I have been thinking for several days, albeit now and then.

First, the Grand Duchess's father was not a Spanish subject.  He was a French citizen.  His father before him obtained French nationality under the relaxed naturalisation policies of French Prime Minister Leon Blum (whom the then Grand Duke loathed).

Secondly, the Grand Duchess's Mother, the Grand Duchess Dowager, is not a Spanish subject.  She is also a French citizen, and if for no other than reason, than by fact of marriage.  At the time of the Grand Duchess's marriage to the then Grand Duke, French nationality was automatically acquired by marriage.

For years they resided in Paris and in Normandy, a fact to which I am sure that David Pritchard can attest, in a rather distinguished apartment in a rather proper corner of the Paris.

You have raised the possibility of whether or not the Grand Duchess is a Spanish subject, and it would be necessary to consider the laws in effect in 1953 in Spain. Spain at that time was governed by Francisco Franco, the Generalissimo, and I am not aware whether at that moment in history Spanish nationality was granted by place of birth or by parentage.

If they are all living in Spain now, it is surely due to the personal largess of Queen Sophia, a distant relative of some kind, who has bestowed some kind of a grace-and-favor living arrangement upon them.

Could you please state how you arrived at the (unequivocal) conclusion that the Grand Duchess is a Spanish subject (not citizen, please, because Spain is a monarchy).

All the best,


Alex P.
All of the Very Best from GuangZhou.

David_Pritchard

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2006, 01:55:52 AM »
I have received a reply from Moscow concerning the passports upon which the present Russian Imperial Family travel and which citizenship they possess.

The three members of the Russian Imperial Family have never taken foreign citizenship. Prior to the restoration of their Russian citizenship and Russian passports by President Yeltsin in 1992, the family members traveled on Spanish diplomatic passports or on Order of Malta passports. I had heard some years ago that Prince Irakly Bagration-Mukhransky, the late brother of Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna, also traveled on an Order of Malta passport.  According to a friend who has seen the actual passport, Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna traveled on a Nansen passport bearing her title at least through the Second World War. One would assume that Grand Duke Vladimir Kyrilovich travelled on a similar document for at least part of his life. The Nansen passport was issued by the League of Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Fridtjof Nansen, starting in 1922 to stateless refugees, primarily Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians and Christians living in the former Ottoman Empire. The Nansen passport was recognised as a travel document by 52 nations.

See these links for images of Nansen Passports:

http://nabo.nb.no/trip?_t=0&_b=NANSEN_ENG&_r=2&_s=E&_n=0&_q=10&_l=www_eng_l

http://nabo.nb.no/trip?_t=0&_b=NANSEN_ENG&_r=3&_s=E&_n=0&_q=10&_l=www_eng_l


David

Offline Belochka

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2006, 02:27:11 AM »
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I have received a reply from Moscow concerning the passports upon which the present Russian Imperial Family travel and which citizenship they possess.

The three members of the Russian Imperial Family have never taken foreign citizenship. Prior to the restoration of their Russian citizenship and Russian passports by President Yeltsin in 1992, the family members traveled on Spanish diplomatic passports or on Order of Malta passports. I had heard some years ago that Prince Irakly Bagration-Mukhransky, the late brother of Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna, also traveled on an Order of Malta passport.  According to a friend who has seen the actual passport, Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna traveled on a Nansen passport bearing her title at least through the Second World War. One would assume that Grand Duke Vladimir Kyrilovich travelled on a similar document for at least part of his life. The Nansen passport was issued by the League of Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Fridtjof Nansen, starting in 1922 to stateless refugees, primarily Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians and Christians living in the former Ottoman Empire. The Nansen passport was recognised as a travel document by 52 nations.

David

Thank you David for confirming that M. V. carries a Spanish Diplomatic passport.
 
My parents were issued with Nansen Passports because of their stateless refugee status after their concentration camp experiences. In the absence of any formal documentation, these were issued post WWII. The internationally recognized papers provided a secondary function: serving as I.D. cards. Those documents remained valid until the recipient was safely able to take up citizenship within their new adopted country.
 
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David_Pritchard

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2006, 03:10:18 AM »
Dear Margarita,

I want to make it clear that the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna carries a Spanish diplomatic passport as a courtesy of the Spanish government. Since her parents never became subjects of the Kingdom of Spain, she does not have the right to be a subject of Spain through jus sanguinis. I do know that as of 1991, registering a birth in Spain was no longer legally sufficient to claim citizenship through jus soli. It could be that the laws in force at the time of the grand duchess' birth would have allowed her to claim Spanish nationality had she so desired it.

David

Offline Belochka

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2006, 05:34:50 AM »
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Dear Margarita,

I want to make it clear that the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna carries a Spanish diplomatic passport as a courtesy of the Spanish government. Since her parents never became subjects of the Kingdom of Spain, she does not have the right to be a subject of Spain through jus sanguinis. I do know that as of 1991, registering a birth in Spain was no longer legally sufficient to claim citizenship through jus soli. It could be that the laws in force at the time of the grand duchess' birth would have allowed her to claim Spanish nationality had she so desired it.

David

Dear David,

I was aware that the Spanish King granted M. V. such a courtesy.

The question we need to clarify: is whether her birth in Madrid granted her automatic Spanish citizenship as a minor, in 1953, born to foreign subjects.

Best regards,

Margarita


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Offline Arleen

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2006, 01:42:42 PM »
Margarita and David, This is so interesting....don't give up now, please continue!

Arleen

David_Pritchard

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2006, 03:27:13 PM »
Under the 1978 Constitution of the Kingdom of Spain, Grand Duke George could claim Spanish citizenship as a person born in Spain to foreign parents, one of whom was born in Spain. He could also claim German citizenship since his father held German citizenship at the time of his birth, however in acquiring German citizenship he would have to renounce his present Russian citizenship as Germany does not recognise dual nationality.

David

Offline Arleen

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2006, 04:18:13 PM »
Thanks David.....Surely there must be a way to find out the exact status they are claiming for themselves since they are such public people.  Its fun to guess, but better to KNOW.....

Arleen

David_Pritchard

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2006, 07:57:40 PM »
[size=14]Dear Arleen,

While I have written that the Grand Duchess could claim such and such citizenship and that the Grand Duke could claim such and such citizenship under the laws of various European countries, I want to make it clear that they are Russian citizens and have the travel documents of Russian citizens.

It should be remembered that having a passport of one nation or another does not always indicate citizenship of that nation. I realise for that most people this does not seem possible but when one is a Grand Duchess of Russia many extraordinary possibilities exist.

David[/size]

Offline TampaBay

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2006, 11:25:02 AM »
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Under the 1978 Constitution of the Kingdom of Spain, Grand Duke George could claim Spanish citizenship as a person born in Spain to foreign parents, one of whom was born in Spain. He could also claim German citizenship since his father held German citizenship at the time of his birth, however in acquiring German citizenship he would have to renounce his present Russian citizenship as Germany does not recognise dual nationality.

David

Neither does the USA.

TampaBay
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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2006, 12:41:17 PM »
Correct Tampabay!

There is some difference between the USA and Germany when it comes to dual citizenship. In the USA the foreign nationality is not recognised or more correctly simply viewed as irrelevant in the eyes of the US government, however in Germany a second nationality is not tolerated under the law. Secretly retaining ones previous citizenship or acquiring another nationality while a German citizen are legal grounds for loosing ones German nationality.

David


Offline TampaBay

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2006, 01:04:07 PM »
Funny you should bring this up.  I had an aquaintance who tried to get out of paying USA taxes because he claimed citizenship in FOUR different countries and had FOUR different passports.  

Anyway the IRS politely told him either he was a citizen of the USA or he was not a citizen of the USA. Per the IRS, since he was a lawful citizen of the USA none of the other "citizenships" are recoginized by the USA.

Therefore, he had to pay his USA taxes as the IRS configured his tax bill or go to jail.

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2006, 05:23:43 PM »
In the USA, one pays taxes on income earned in the country, no matter what one is a citizen of.
 Which brings us back to MV...if she does pay any taxes, to whom would she pay them ?
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Offline TampaBay

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Re: What are Maria Vladimirovna and her son doing?
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2006, 07:40:31 PM »
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In the USA, one pasys taxes on income earned it the country, no matter what one is a citizen of.
 Which brings us back to MV...if she does pay any taxes, to whom would she pay them ?


GOOD QUESTION!!!!!  ;) ;) ;)

TampaBay
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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