Author Topic: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch  (Read 154090 times)

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Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #195 on: February 05, 2010, 03:17:54 AM »
I think it was in the family of the Konstantinovichs...were they had just the daughter Tatiana and a lot of sons. And when finally the second daughter Natalia was born (who died later) the parents were so happy because they longed for a second daughter for so long...thats why I asked.

Thanks for the information about Alix. I find it really pity that she - beside all her wonderful attributes and manners - grow jealous.
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Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #196 on: February 05, 2010, 03:44:22 AM »
It was a bit different with the  Konstantinovichs...

Yes, they had many sons, but Xenia and Alix married within a year of each other and started  their families in 1895 to 1907, while Grand Duke and Grand Duchess Konstantine already had six children by 1894 followed by three more children over a 12 year period.

Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #197 on: February 05, 2010, 03:54:26 AM »
Of course. But I just meant the matter about the sexes of the children - a lot of sons and only one or two (surviving) daughters which was compareable with Xenia and Sandro - and not the time and period ;)
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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #198 on: February 05, 2010, 01:01:18 PM »


Thanks for the information about Alix. I find it really pity that she - beside all her wonderful attributes and manners - grow jealous.

It's better not to jump to conclusions as Mr.Lowe only said about jealousy but not  gave us the sources. As usual.

As some of our posters said somewhere at another neverending discussion about "Alix/Xenia/the Romanovs" NOWHERE in Empress Alexandra's correspondence one can find any mention that Xenia was bad as she had so many sons and Alexandra hadn't. She only disliked Xenia's husband and said so in her correspondence.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #199 on: February 05, 2010, 01:30:13 PM »
I wouldn't see any distancing or 'jealousy' as naturally a character flaw anyway. We do know how difficult the lack of producing a son for Alexandra was and I think anyone could understand why a relationship, even a formerly close one, could disintegrate under such a situation. It must have been excruciating, no matter what Alexandra's personal feelings for Xenia, to watch her produce son after son like it was the easiest thing in the world and it was the one major thing expected of Alexandra and which she consistently failed (and I use that word in context of how she must have felt, it wasn't her fault at all) at.
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #200 on: February 05, 2010, 01:48:30 PM »


Thanks for the information about Alix. I find it really pity that she - beside all her wonderful attributes and manners - grow jealous.

It's better not to jump to conclusions as Mr.Lowe only said about jealousy but not  gave us the sources. As usual.



Source is Alexander Mikhailovich - and what he said was that he felt less welcome at Tsarskoe Selo after producing six sons - he felt "blamed" for the sex of his kids. But he doesn't say that this was exclusively Alexandra's work.

It seems to me quite natural - as GDElla says - that Nicholas and Alexandra would grow awkward or resentful of Sandro and Xenia - not necessarily for having all the sons pre se, but possibly for their ostentatious expressions of sympathy every time N and A had a girl. Who'd want a guest who comes around to say "Here am I with all my boys - oh POOR you that's got girls!" :-)
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #201 on: February 05, 2010, 05:52:45 PM »
Yes. One must remember that Alicky was the jealous kind. Greek Minny wrote that Alicky got annoyed when she & Nicky talked about the childhood times when she was not there. If she felt excluded by only a conversation. Imagine the pressure she had to try, girl after girl. It was written that Nicky walked out after Anastasia was born. Ducky also wrote about the pressure of having a boy as she was forced to mate with Ernie again to secure the Hesse succession (especially after her family was pushed aside for Charley Albany after her father died). She wrote to Missy in true sympathy of Alicky's trials since she was in the same boat. With that in mind, it would be a saint of Alicky not to be jealous of Xenia having son after son. She would also feel the pressure from her mother-in-law and the country in general- another girl !

Offline Grand Duchess Jennifer

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #202 on: February 05, 2010, 09:26:33 PM »
It was written that Nicky walked out after Anastasia was born.
He actually walked out after Maria was born, not Anastasia. ;)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #203 on: February 05, 2010, 09:35:06 PM »
I read it was Anastasia from the Massie book. Anyway the fact is that even Nicky's patience began to wear thin at that point. If Alicky was jealous of Xenia's success in bearing sons, who could really blame her ?

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #204 on: February 06, 2010, 01:52:29 AM »
I read it was Anastasia from the Massie book. Anyway the fact is that even Nicky's patience began to wear thin at that point. If Alicky was jealous of Xenia's success in bearing sons, who could really blame her ?

Not even Massie is always right. As Jennifer stated, it was after Maria was born and the information comes from Sophie BuxhoevedenĀ“s book.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #205 on: February 06, 2010, 09:26:56 AM »
Yes. One must remember that Alicky was the jealous kind. Greek Minny wrote that Alicky got annoyed when she & Nicky talked about the childhood times when she was not there. If she felt excluded by only a conversation. Imagine the pressure she had to try, girl after girl. It was written that Nicky walked out after Anastasia was born. Ducky also wrote about the pressure of having a boy as she was forced to mate with Ernie again to secure the Hesse succession (especially after her family was pushed aside for Charley Albany after her father died). She wrote to Missy in true sympathy of Alicky's trials since she was in the same boat. With that in mind, it would be a saint of Alicky not to be jealous of Xenia having son after son. She would also feel the pressure from her mother-in-law and the country in general- another girl !

Oh heck Eric - with all due respect, "One must remember" that this woman is dead and none of us knew her; all we can do is form a view based on a variety of written sources, and we don;t have the right to "instruct" others as to what the person was like. You believe you read of one incident that you think shows "jealousy" in a completely different situation; but as I pointed out, Alexander does not actually say anything about Alexandra being jealous of his wife, and he doesn't mention Xenia either - he was talking about the way HE felt, and he may just as easily have been referring to Nicholas's reaction - or both of them. Or perhaps he was being paranoid or making excuses for the ral reasons they didn't want him around

Now, here's some possible evidence that shows Nicholas being jealous:

his not liking it if Alexandra spent her evenings with anyone else (source: AA Mosolov)
her writing to assure him that "no matter how big wifey's heart is, her husy stands first" because she had apparently been giving attention to friends.
Nicholas's strange reaction to Alexandra singing in public, which he didn't like (source: Anna Vyrubova)
then, of course, his famous jealousy of his own power and role in dealing with his ministers

some evidence that shows Nicholas's rivalry (even when playful) with Sandro and Xenia over their kids:

1. always comparing the weight of their daughters (his was bigger, though slightly younger)
2. remarking that his sister's son was very ugly, whereas his kid would be beautiful

Conversely, here's some evidence that shows Alexandra being rather relaxed:

laughing at watching other women flirting with her husband
tolerating the fact that Anna Vyrubova played footsie with him and wrote him gushing letters. For most women, that would have ended a friendship on the spot. Alexandra was often annoyed by Vyrubova, but trusted her husband enough not to send her away.

Jealousy is a human emotion: most people feel it from time to time when they have cause or feel insecure. It doesn't make them "the jealous type" and allow people to extrapolate into every situation that this MUST be how they reacted in others.  And, even if they did react that way- again, how does this make someone "the jealous kind"? When does "jealousy' become a part of one person's personality and not anather's?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 09:34:18 AM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #206 on: February 06, 2010, 02:49:53 PM »
Nonetheless the fact is that tremendous pressure was put on Alicky to have a son. Marie Feodorovna, her mother-in-law had four (counting Alexander who died in infancy) and Xenia much more. It really look bad that she had daughter after daughter. Even if both of them spoke nothing about Alicky about her ability to have a son, Xenia did produce them rather easily. One must also know how sensitive Alicky was. Her stress frequently translated to her headaches. Based upon these, it is easy to speculate that Alicky felt a bit jealous of Xenia. Another factor was that Alicky remained the closest to her "other" sister-in-law, Olga Alexandrovna, who was childless in a loveless marriage.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #207 on: February 07, 2010, 04:33:19 AM »
Nonetheless the fact is that tremendous pressure was put on Alicky to have a son. Marie Feodorovna, her mother-in-law had four (counting Alexander who died in infancy) and Xenia much more. It really look bad that she had daughter after daughter. Even if both of them spoke nothing about Alicky about her ability to have a son, Xenia did produce them rather easily. One must also know how sensitive Alicky was. Her stress frequently translated to her headaches. Based upon these, it is easy to speculate that Alicky felt a bit jealous of Xenia. Another factor was that Alicky remained the closest to her "other" sister-in-law, Olga Alexandrovna, who was childless in a loveless marriage.

There were a any numbers of reasons why the relationship between Xenia and Sandro on the one hand and Nicholas and Alexandra on the other broke down, not least Sandro's political campaigning and constant button-holing of Nicholas, which cannot have been welcome after a point. No doubt Xenia's running to Mama to discuss every piece of gossip or new event contributed too. Alexandra would not have been human if she had not wondered how it could be so easy for Xenia to have a son and not her, but this is not evidence of an emotion so poisonous as to break apart an old bond. And there were many reasons why OLga stayed close to them, not least the fact that she had the time and the interest, little love at home, and was far less close to the Dowager Empress. Alexandra remained fond of Xenia and never spoke badly of her, though the same is not reciprocally the case.

Incidentally, Rasputin was not a monk. I just wish you were less swift to jump in to answer things without checking what you are saying and where you heard it.  I am sure you are extremely knowledgebale on photographs and images but one can't be an expert on everything. I, for one stay out of threads about Italian and French royals as I know zero about them.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 04:47:52 AM by Janet Ashton »
Shake your chains to earth like dew
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #208 on: February 07, 2010, 03:35:47 PM »
Well...I don't think Alexandra disliked Xenia, but it must be painful of being compared with her in the child bearing situation. Most certainly Minny would have talked about "Xenia's boys" with her daughter-in-law, and it would sting the more sensitive Alexandra (especially before the birth of Alexei). Ducky was certainly right when she wrote about the unfairness  of the pressure being placed on the mother to produce the heir.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Children and descendants of GD Alexander Mikhailovitch
« Reply #209 on: February 08, 2010, 01:04:40 PM »
Well...I don't think Alexandra disliked Xenia, but it must be painful of being compared with her in the child bearing situation. Most certainly Minny would have talked about "Xenia's boys" with her daughter-in-law, and it would sting the more sensitive Alexandra (especially before the birth of Alexei). Ducky was certainly right when she wrote about the unfairness  of the pressure being placed on the mother to produce the heir.

Agree that the pressure on women was wholly unfair; but of course it wasn't just women who would resent having their faces rubbed in their childlessness (or sonlessness). Maria Feodorovna favoured XEnia's kids in a way that upset other Romanovs since it was felt that X's sons were treated more as Grand Dukes than as Princes. I can well imagine that there were moments when Nicholas and Alexandra found this hard to put up with, especially coupled with Sandro's constant advice to them - they must have felt as if Motherdear wanted to replace them on the throne with Sandro and Xenia! And quite possibly this treatment by the Dowager Empress was a factor in the friendship cooling and becoming awkward, rather than anything quite so crude as straightforward jealousy over their having lots of sons....
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.