Author Topic: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg  (Read 228731 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

ilyala

  • Guest
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2006, 11:09:13 AM »
I believe the decision regarding Young Alfred's education was made by Marie, Duchess of Coburg, Ilyala, certainly not Queen Victoria.  As far as I know, it was Prince Albert, anyway, who promised his brother that his second son (Alfred Snr.) could be his (Ernest's) heir. 

Alfred Junior was removed from his family at the age of only eight to be educated for his future role and that family appeared to have no idea he was being ill-treated by his tutor and the bad company he got into later on.

yes, prince albert made the promise but by the time young affie was born it was queen victoria's wish, as she was hanging on to albert's dreams and thoughts.

i am not so sure marie agreed on her young son being taken away from her so early. judging by the way she raised her daughters (always controlling everything and everyone that came in contact with them) do you really think she would have agreed to lose control of her son? this to me sounds more like something she had to accept. but i'm open to disagreements since i'm not entirely documented on the matter

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2006, 11:16:22 AM »
Well, she wanted status. I would think this enhanced her son's status, so maybe she was okay with it. But at the same time, it was her only son, although she seemed more interested in controlling her daughters, because she knew she could, perhaps.  ;) It always strikes me that they never paid as much attention to their only son, and that they never really attempted to save him from his own excesses as much as they could have. Perhaps they had just grown apart from him, but still. I think this choice was not his mother's abiout being taken away, but that it was the only thing they could do given his eventual status.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2006, 07:06:49 PM »
What plans did they have for Alfred with regards to marrying? It seems this would have been important.

He was engaged to one of the twin granddaughters (either Olga or Elsa, I can't remember but think it's the latter) of Grand Duchess Vera Konstantinova (Queen Olga's sister) who were Duchess of Wurttemberg. The marriage was called off.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Ena

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 219
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2006, 09:38:40 PM »
Marie Alexandrovna is one of my faves.  However, she always seemed to be taking care of her children into their adulthood; coming to their rescue and worrying financially (in Ducky's case). 

Yes -- but it is strange that her care didn't seem to extend to her only son -- he was palmed off elsewhere as a young child and with tragic results.
I see what you mean.  However, I tend to think differently in terms of the heir for every family.  It reminds me of the comment Marie Antoinette made about her first child being a girl.  Something to the effect of, "a son belongs to the state, but you shall be mine."  I think it was a popular theme throughout the royal houses.

I think you just accepted that your heir didn't in effect belong to you, but to the people.  That whole idea of the sacrificial first son.

Offline CountessKate

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2006, 11:48:44 AM »
Quote
"a son belongs to the state, but you shall be mine."  I think it was a popular theme throughout the royal houses.

That may be so, but it's a long way from giving up on your son and leaving him to die alone.  He wasn't much use to the state then.  The fact of the matter was that, especially in Germany, boys were allowed and indeed actively encouraged, to become independent of their mothers and I suspect Marie resented that.  It was perfectly OK to dominate your daughters, and marrying them off young ensured they didn't attain sufficient maturity to rebel.  No doubt she thought she was doing the best thing for them, but as grandduchessella says, Beatrice, who took a long time about it, ended up with the happiest marriage and her mother had the least to do with arranging it.

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2006, 12:31:10 PM »
Yes, it seems the son was regarded as the state's especially when it was an only son, as in this case. I believe that Prince Alfred was an heir, yet at the same time, he wasn't heir to the throne of England, but he was an heir to a duchy in Germany. So while, in part, this attitude explains what happened, it doesn't explain all of it.It seems there was more indifference to Alfred than usually existed with regards to heirs, but it could have been because his family didn't know what was going on, and didn't bother to keep themselves informed. Still, it is strange. Thanks for letting me know who he would have been married off to.

Offline lori_c

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2006, 10:35:07 AM »
I  know that she didn't want Missy marrying George V because they were first cousins.  Why did she allow Ducky's later marriages?

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2006, 11:55:44 AM »
Well, she actually wished Ducky's first marriage as far as I know. I think that Ducky's first marriage was largely arranged, and her mother must have agreed with it. It turned out to be a disaster. As for her second marriage, it was to a member of her own family, her nephew, but it was controversial, and Ducky wanted it no matter what- no one could tell her she was wrong. I can't remember what her mother thought about it, but this has been discussed in some thread.

Offline lori_c

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2006, 12:09:45 PM »
Well, i know the objection was the first cousin thing because in the Orthodox Church this is prohibited.  I also think George V wasn't an option because MA didn't like the English Royal Family.  But if she was so devout, wouldn't Kirill being an objection too, even if it WAS her nephew?

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2006, 12:19:34 PM »
Yes, that seems right, that Kyril was a first cousin so she might have objected. I am not sure how devout MA was, although it is true that she always wanted to be surrounded by her traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in England. I should investigate that more, as honestly I don't know the answer. I think that of all her children, MA's relationship or the lack thereof with her son, is most interesting, to me anyway, and he died so young, and there are so many unanswered questions involved with his death.

Offline lori_c

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2006, 01:11:24 PM »
Yes, that seems right, that Kyril was a first cousin so she might have objected. I am not sure how devout MA was, although it is true that she always wanted to be surrounded by her traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in England. I should investigate that more, as honestly I don't know the answer. I think that of all her children, MA's relationship or the lack thereof with her son, is most interesting, to me anyway, and he died so young, and there are so many unanswered questions involved with his death.
I thought that he died of syphillus.  I read that on Wikipedia.  I couldn't find any reference about abuse from his tutors but then again I am only beginning to learn about the Edinburgh family. I recently started a biography about Queen Marie of Roumania and there is much info on MA in it as well as her son.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2006, 02:03:35 PM »
I don't think her objection to George was so much the fact that they were cousins as much as she disliked and resented the English Court and didn't want her daughter to be part of it--even if it would've been a glittering position. (George was the heir by then)

She was not happy with Ducky's arrangement--that was primarily orchestrated by Alfred (who had wished the marriage of George and Missy) behind her back.

It doesn't seem that she discouraged Bee much in her love for Grand Duke Michael (Misha) despite the first cousin relationship. Perhaps she felt it was an infatuation that would run its course, though it turned into quite a drama on Bee's part.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Marlene

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2466
  • I live and breath QVD
    • View Profile
    • Royal Musings
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2006, 02:39:15 PM »

The relationship between young Affie and his parents was not a very good one.  He also had an awful reputation and was involved in one scandal after another. It should come as no surprise that his engagement was called off.  Yes, he probably contracted venereal disease - and he was in a sanitarium.  However, he apparently tried to kill himself on the night of his parents 25th anniversary - and died a few days later.    I am actually the one who discovered that he had been engaged.

Yes, it seems the son was regarded as the state's especially when it was an only son, as in this case. I believe that Prince Alfred was an heir, yet at the same time, he wasn't heir to the throne of England, but he was an heir to a duchy in Germany. So while, in part, this attitude explains what happened, it doesn't explain all of it.It seems there was more indifference to Alfred than usually existed with regards to heirs, but it could have been because his family didn't know what was going on, and didn't bother to keep themselves informed. Still, it is strange. Thanks for letting me know who he would have been married off to.
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2006, 03:59:04 PM »
Well, I am glad someone did the research there. I think that he was indeed a scandal, a bit like the Hanoverians, perhaps. But, it may have been more his upbringing than what he was. He wasn't raised that well, and his family apparently didn't know or they were just not informed in general. Why was the relationship so bad? Was it just distance from him or what? He seems like he was nice enough, but just not raised well.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh and Coburg
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2006, 04:58:46 PM »
There was a report in England in 1897 (quickly shot down by the Coburg court) that young Alfred was to be engaged to Princess Feodora of Saxe-Meiningen. I'm presuming this is Charly's daughter 'Feo', especially given that Charly and Marie were very great friends and Charly spent a good deal of time at Coburg.

His engagement to Elsa was announced in the Times (in the Court Circular) but I don't think there was any follow-up announcement about the ending of it.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 06:26:19 PM by grandduchessella »
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/