Author Topic: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti  (Read 43126 times)

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Offline Tybalt

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2009, 10:15:48 AM »
children of henri I°
Catherine (1574-Paris+1595-Le Louvre), marquess des Isles
Éléonore (30/4/1587-Paris+20/1/1619-château de Muret), married in 1606 at Fontainebleau with Philippe Guillaume of Orange-Nassau (1554+1618), prince of Orange
HENRI II (1/9/1588-St Jean d'Angély+26/12/1646-Paris), 3° prince of Condé, married 17/5/1609 at Paris with Charlotte Marguerite of Montmorency (11/5/1594-Pézenas+2/12/1650-Châtillon-sur-Loing), lady of St Liebault and Arvilliers, duchess of Montmorency, pair de France, 6 children
children of Charles of Soissons
Louise (7/2/1603-Paris+9/9/1637-Paris), Mademoiselle de Soissons, married 30/4/1617 at Paris with Henri II of Orléans-Longueville (25/4/1595-Paris+1663-Rouen), duke of Longueville, count of Tancarville, sovereign prince of Neufchâtel, childless.
Louis (11/5/1604-Paris+6/7/1641-Marfee-Sedan), count of Clermont, Soissons and Dreux, killed, unmarried
Marie Marguerite (3/5/1606-Paris+3/6/1692-Paris), countess of Soisson and Clermont, married 1625 in Paris with Thomas François of Savoy 21/12/1596-Turin+22/1/1656-Turin), prince of Carignan, count of Soissons, grand-maître of France
Charlotte Anne (1608-Paris+1623-Paris)
Élisabeth (1610-Paris+1611-Paris)

Offline REMI

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2009, 10:56:54 AM »
ODEAAR!


ODEAAR? What language are you speaking???

Offline Tybalt

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2009, 05:18:33 AM »
children of Henri II
Louis (1617-Vincennes+1617-Vincennes)
Henri (1618-Vincennes+1618-Vincennes)
Louis (1618-vincennes+1618-Vincennes), twin
Anne-Geneviève (28/8/1619-Vincennes+15/4/1679-Paris), married 1642 in Paris with Henri II of Orléans-Longueville (25/4/1595-Amiens+1663-Rouen), duke of Longueville and Estouteville, count of Tancarville, sovereign prince of Neufchâtel
LOUIS II(8/9/1621-Paris+11/12/1686-Fontainebleau), 4° prince of Condé, married 9/2/1641 in Paris with Claire Clémence of Maillé-Brézé (25/2/1628-Brézé+16/4/1694-Châteauroux), marquess of Brézé, duchess of Fronsac, she was a niece of Richelieu, 4 children
ARMAND I° (11/10/1629-Paris+21/2/1666-Pézenas), prince of Conti, married 21/2/1654 in Paris with Anne-Marie Martinozzi (1637-Rome+4/2/1672-Paris), she was a niece of Mazarin, 3 children
The 4 first children were born in prison in Vincennes.

Offline beladona

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2010, 03:15:50 PM »
I´ve read that the small height was brought into the family with Claire Clemence de Maille (grandmother of Anne Marie Victoire)...

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2010, 01:08:09 PM »
Quote
I´ve read that the small height was brought into the family with Claire Clemence de Maille (grandmother of Anne Marie Victoire)...

She was very short, and had to wear such high heels to her wedding that she slipped while dancing and fell sprawling on the floor.  Her children were certainly small, and her grandchildren were tiny.  The Grand Condé said that if his race continued to dwindle at the current rate, eventually it would disappear entirely.

Offline Marc

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2010, 08:59:15 PM »
Quote
I´ve read that the small height was brought into the family with Claire Clemence de Maille (grandmother of Anne Marie Victoire)...

She was very short, and had to wear such high heels to her wedding that she slipped while dancing and fell sprawling on the floor.  Her children were certainly small, and her grandchildren were tiny.  The Grand Condé said that if his race continued to dwindle at the current rate, eventually it would disappear entirely.

Well,he was right ;(

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2010, 03:53:39 AM »
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Well,he was right ;(

I don't think he anticipated the elimination of the House of Condé by the shooting of the Duc d'Enghien - who seems to have recovered the height lost in previous generations.

Offline HSH The Duchess of Bourbon

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2010, 01:03:55 PM »
Quote
Well,he was right ;(

I don't think he anticipated the elimination of the House of Condé by the shooting of the Duc d'Enghien - who seems to have recovered the height lost in previous generations.

Lol! Claire-Clémence also brought the Condé's their famous 'madness' - her son Henri Jules, father of Anne Marie, was terribly mad i hear =[
HSH The Duchess of Bourbon, Princess of the blood

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2010, 08:08:23 AM »
He was subject to frenzied rages when he howled silently like a dog or wolf, beat his wife (and servants, but the court naturally were unconcerned about them), and at various times thought he was a bat, rabbit or a plant, and required treating as such (e.g. when thinking he was a plant, having his servants water him).  At one stage he thought he was dead and was starving himself, until his servants pretended that a some of them were dead too, and encouraged him to eat with them until that particular manifestation had worn off.

When in the presence of Louis XIV, his behaviour was greatly modified due to the awe he felt for the King, who pretended not to notice the faces he made or his silent howling, which he probably couldn't control.  However, with anyone else he had no such inhibitions and the female members of his family at least were vulnerable to his rages and moods.  Very occasionally he would actually behave appropriately and graciously ask someone to dinner but anyone who knew him was so frightened of being at the receiving end of his rages, or mad fits, they tried to avoid being in his company if at all possible.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2010, 09:37:01 AM »
Louis-François-Joseph de Bourbon, Prince de Conti (but doesn't the alternative spelling Conty look much more French and better?) was the sole heir of his unmarried paternal Condé great-aunt Louise-Anne de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Charolais. From her he inherited among other things the marquisat of Chaussin in Burgundy (now in Jura, Franche-Comté), which had belonged to so many renowned dynasties and is my favourite French village. But in order to cover his great-aunt's debts he sold it to Count François-Gaspard de Poly, Marshall of the King's Camps and Armies, to whom it belonged until the Revolution.

Source: Dictionnaire géographique, historique et statistique des communes de la Franche-Comté, volume 2, 1854.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 09:54:09 AM by Tainyi sovetnik »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2010, 03:16:22 PM »
Does anybody know why there were Princes of Conti at all? I understand why there were Princes of Condé, they were the First Princes of the Blood. (Although they started to use their princely title a few years before they became First Princes of the Blood....) By why did Louis I of Condé's second son found the line of Princes of Conti? OK, he was also a Prince of the Blood, but so were most of his Condé relatives, but each of them didn't style themselves Prince just because of that. His younger half-brother and his descendants were just Counts of Soissons.

And when and why was the unattractive Italianate spelling Conti adopted instead of the elegant Conty, which today still is the name of the eponymous village?

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2010, 11:33:26 AM »
And how strange that the seigneurie of Condé(-en-Brie) actually passed to the comital Soissons line and eventually to the Savoy-Carignans, from whom Louis XIV confiscated it in favour a certain Marquis de La Faye, diplomat and member of the Académie française. I guess Condé must be seen as one of those royal dukedoms and counties which were just titular, unlike all the other feudal titles in ancien-régime France.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2010, 01:41:02 PM »
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By why did Louis I of Condé's second son found the line of Princes of Conti? OK, he was also a Prince of the Blood, but so were most of his Condé relatives, but each of them didn't style themselves Prince just because of that.

He did not 'style' himself a Prince, the marquisate of Conti was raised to a principality for him sometime between 1583 and 1597 and this must have been done either by Henri III or Henri IV as only the King could do such a thing.  The more likely was Henri IV, as François de Bourbon was a genuine Catholic yet a strong supporter of his cousin, and he was strongly opposed to the Guises and other pro-Catholic parties, so was a useful person to advance at court.  However, it is possible that Henri III might have advanced him in rank, possibly to try to drive a wedge between the two branches of the Bourbons since his father and elder brother were Huguenots.  Indeed, at one stage he was considered as a possible successor of Henri III by the opponents of Henri of Navarre because of his Catholicism, although he remained loyal to the head of the house of Bourbon-Vendome despite the differences in religion.  In any case, his elder brother the second Prince de Condé died in 1588 with only one male heir, so it might have been seen as a good move to raise up the next senior prince of the blood after Henri of Navarre, by either King Henri, III or IV, as after his brother died in 1588 he would have been 3rd in line for the throne, after Henri of Navarre and his infant nephew Henri Prince de Condé, and in 1589 he would have been second in line for the throne, since Henri IV fathered no legitimate children until he married his second wife Marie de Medici and the Dauphin Louis was born in 1601.  Ironically of course the first Prince of Conti himself fathered no legitimate children and so was not the founder of a line of Princes of Conti; the principality, which was inherited by the Condé family, was revived in 1629 in favour of his nephew Armand de Bourbon.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2010, 04:14:14 PM »
CountessKate, your explanation of the use of the princely title as a mark of favour in the political-religious fight seems very reasonable.
However:
He did not 'style' himself a Prince, the marquisate of Conti was raised to a principality for him sometime between 1583 and 1597 and this must have been done either by Henri III or Henri IV as only the King could do such a thing.
I would also have thought so, but I understand from François Velde's excellent Heraldica site's article about French princely titles that neither the Condé nor the Conti princely titles were explicitly granted by the King, but apparently more or less assumed, probably with royal approval. And when the princely Conti title was revived for Armand in 1629, the marquisate of Conti had already been sold the previous year by his father to none other than Maximilien de Béthune, duc de Sully, in whose family it stayed!

So we actually have to princely titles, Condé and Conti, which eventually were purely titular, or perhaps we can even say mere styles. Strange in the context of l'Ancien régime, where a title was so closely connected to lands. For example the Dukes of Sully did in fact own Sully (a village on the Loire).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 04:24:33 PM by Tainyi sovetnik »

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Bourbon-Condé and Bourbon-Conti
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 07:46:20 AM »
Yes, I see that François Velde thinks they slid those principalities through on the grounds that they were princes of the blood, and indeed I recall Nancy Mitford writing in 'The Sun King' that the title 'Prince' was not in fact a normal part of the French aristocratic rankings and tended (by sticklers such as Saint Simon) to be sneered at for foreigness and pretension.  And logically it would follow that since the title was rather invented in the first instance, when the marquisate was sold, the princely title didn't go with it, but stayed with the Condés.