Author Topic: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates  (Read 7694 times)

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David_Pritchard

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Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« on: September 03, 2005, 03:46:47 PM »
See this link:

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=276

Additional information would be greatly appreciated.

David

Offline Ortino

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2005, 03:59:25 PM »
This is the first time I'm hearing about them issuing death certificates for the Imperial Family. That's very interesting. I attempted to find more information about this, but nothing has turned up. Pehaps something new will surface after some time has gone by.

lexi4

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2005, 12:25:40 AM »
This is really interesting. Is the any legal significance to death certificates being issued ?

lexi4

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2005, 01:04:44 AM »
I found this. Don't know if it will help. But here it is

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/12/23/013.html

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2005, 12:16:51 PM »
A death certificate is absolutely necessary in most countries to settle a person's estate and resolve any outside issues. I imagine this is true in Russia, even though up until recently there was little respect for a person's private property. What Maria Vladimirovna is seeking is that, and perhaps more - an official recognition of the murders as either a criminal act or an official act of a legitimate government. We should not forget that the Orthodox Church buried the remains of the family without mentioning their names - an Orwellian act of non-personhood if I ever saw one! Her requests are small steps in the right direction, and she has pursued this for many years, as I understand it.

David_Pritchard

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2005, 12:22:43 PM »
Quote
This is really interesting. Is the any legal significance to death certificates being issued ?


The legal significance is that the "sons of Alexis" and other alleged grandchildren of Nicholas and Alexander will have no basis for their claims. If all of the children died on that day in 1918 according to the Russian Government, then there could be no mystery claimants.

David

Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2005, 05:25:00 PM »
Quote

The legal significance is that the "sons of Alexis" and other alleged grandchildren of Nicholas and Alexander will have no basis for their claims. If all of the children died on that day in 1918 according to the Russian Government, then there could be no mystery claimants.

David


Thank you David, I posted a similar question under News - now I get it.  Thank You!

best,
dca

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2005, 06:36:05 PM »
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=276

A quote from the article which affirms David's post

>>For that not withstanding, Romanova is happy to get the finally issued official death certificates for the members the Imperial Family, as that has put an end to the disputes about people who claimed to be descendants of Tsar Nicholas II.<<
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

lexi4

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2005, 12:21:16 AM »
I have a question.
What does Maria Vladimirovna Romanova have to gain by getting death certificates? And why is she considered head of the family? She was the daughter of Vladimir Cyrillovitch of Russia, whom I thought was considered a pretender to the Russian throne, and Leonida Georgievna Kirby née Bagration-Moukhransky (the divorced wife of the American-born Sumner Moore Kirby). Aren't there other Romanovs with a more direct connection to the throne?

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2005, 04:33:14 PM »
Quote
I have a question.
What does Maria Vladimirovna Romanova have to gain by getting death certificates? And why is she considered head of the family? She was the daughter of Vladimir Cyrillovitch of Russia, whom I thought was considered a pretender to the Russian throne, and Leonida Georgievna Kirby née Bagration-Moukhransky (the divorced wife of the American-born Sumner Moore Kirby). Aren't there other Romanovs with a more direct connection to the throne?


1. I believe I explained on an earlier post what could be gained from the death certificates, but I will repeat myself. I think it's important for Russia to establish whether or not the murders were a government execution or an extralegal (i.e. criminal) act. Also, the tsar's estate in Russia could not be legally settled within Russia absent a death certificate.

2. Maria Vladimirovna is indeed considered by many to be the Head of the Imperial House. At the time of the Revolution, the succession was Alexei, Michael, and then Kiril Vladimirovich. After the deaths of Alexei and Michael, Kiril became pretender to the throne. While the term "pretender" does have several meanings, in the dynastic sense, it means "one who sets forth a claim, as in pretender to the throne". Therefore, there is nothing pejorative about the term pretender. And, Kiril Vladimirovich's granddaughter Maria is also a pretender and the appropriate person to be persuing this matter.

3. Dynastically, and according to the Pauline Laws, Maria Vladimirovna is the head of the family. There is a rival claimant in Prince Nicholas Romanovich. Those closest in descent to the late tsar are descended in the maternal line through Nicholas' sisters Xenia and Olga. The Pauline Laws tend to subordinate the claims of maternal line descendants.

Tania

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2005, 10:55:18 PM »
Lisa,

I think this part of your statement is very important. To date, I don't think I've ever heard anyone voice it in the way you have and I quote only part of it :

"it's important for Russia to establish whether or not the murders were a government execution or an extralegal (i.e. criminal) act"

Perhaps once this has finally been established, this may make allowances for other things to be answered legally. I don't know why it's taken these many years for this to be responded.

I gather that old adage, 'that the wheels of justice go at a slow pace' is exactly that when it comes to this case in particular.

It seems the Russian Orthodox has responded. The present Russian government not at all.

I wonder how it all will end legally?

Tania

Tania

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2005, 10:58:05 PM »
Sorry, did not finish my sentence correctly, and post again to correct it.

'The Russian Orthodox Church has responded'

my apologies. :(

Tania

lexi4

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2005, 11:43:03 PM »
Lisa,
Thank you so much. I appreciate your response. I did not know the distinction of the word pretender. Anyway, thank you for answering.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2005, 12:36:38 AM »
Thank you to both Tania and Lexi4.

I have interpreted the Orthodox Church's naming the Imperial Family as passion bearers as evidence that they consider the family died together in Ekaterinburg.

lexi4

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Re: Murdered Romanovs issued Death Certificates
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2005, 12:42:28 AM »
I agree with that Lisa.
What I don't understand about the death certificates is why it is important to Maria if:
A. The church considers them dead
B. There is nothing left (financially speaking) for anyone to lay claim to
Any ideas?